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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 02:00 PM        THE BIG ALL PURPOSE PLAME OIUTING SCANDAL TRIAL THREAD
Time Reporter Says He Learned Agent's Identity from Rove
ABC News

Monday 31 October 2005

Matthew Cooper says I. Lewis Libby confirmed information.

One of the reporters at the center of the investigation into the leak of the identity of an undercover CIA officer, says he first learned the agent's name from President Bush's top political advisor, Karl Rove.

Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper also said today in an interview with "Good Morning America," that the vice president's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, confirmed to him that Ambassador Joseph Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, was a covert CIA operative.



So, there it is. No more beating around the Bush. Maybe he broke the law, maybe he didn't, but Rove leaked the info. That means W's early statement that he'd fire anyone involved with the leak ought to include Rove. I know, I know, he changed his statement to 'anyone found guilty of a crime', but he needs his feet held to the fire by the press on this.

And Libby? Cooper says Libby confirmed that Plame was a COVERT OPERATIVE. Not just someone who worked at the CIA.

Any attempts to portray Libby as a forgetful guy working alone are ridiculous. Any attempts to leave Rove out of the equation are now apparently and obviously bogus. The immediatte question is how much did their bosses know and when did they know it?

I could be convinced that W was left out of the loop. It's easy for me to beleieve he doesn't do much in the way of actually governing. But Chenney? We're supposed to beleieve his chief of staff went rougue?

I don't even care all that much what laws got broken. These people deliberately outed a covert agent involved in WMD work to punish a critic and send a warning to other critics. The same people who are forever insinuating that anyone who doesn't agree with them isn't patriotic. These guys are traitors.
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 02:11 PM       
Well said indeed, Max. Bush may not have been the one to leak the info, but he should bee held accountable for the things he did say about the investigation. If he doesn't fire everyone involved, then he is just as bad as those who perpetrated the crime.
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Baalzamon Baalzamon is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 02:18 PM       
Joe Wilson chose to side with the terrorists instead of with his country, and he and his wife need to be held accountable.
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 03:17 PM       
It's not the same thing, idiot. Maybe they agree with him. THAT would make them equally accountable, but not the fact that they themselves are part of the same family. Bush is IN CHARGE of these people, and any wrongs they commit may be their own fault, but the lack of reprimand is HIS fault.
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 03:55 PM       
Kind of makes you wonder what other things they'd been lying about...
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 03:58 PM       
While Baalzamon is indeed an idiot, I'm fairly certain he was being facetious.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 04:03 PM       
The senate is in a closed door session on the wider impications of this case and it's relationship to the war right now. Reid demanded it, and it seems there are no senate rules to prevent him from having it. He wants to know why the Republican controlled congress doesn't feel the matter is worthy of investigation.

In particular he wants to know why the Republican comittee that promsied to investigate both flawed intelligecne and the way it was used did the fgirst half of their job and refused to do the second half until after the election, and then when W won, refused to do it at all.

Frist accused the Democrats of 'hijacking congress.' Good Lord! THe R's hold a slim majority and have used it for five years as if they posessed an overwhelming mandate from the American People instead of routinely getting their way by 51%.

Of course this will achieve little, but I hope it's the first sign of the democrats spine regrowing. They can't make the Republicans investigate, but they can damn well make sure the questions stay in the media. I think W chose to cave to his right wing on the Alito nomination thinking the fight would drive the Plame Outing and what it says about how the administration managed Iraq War intel off the front page.
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 04:29 PM       
You're right that it wont accomplish anything max, but I'm also not convinced the democrats are capable of keeping the pressure up on this so that it doest fall off the media radar.



Regardless of anything else thats going on, it would be a really smart move right now for bush to start shuffling his staff.

He could buy himself a lot of time and maybe even pull himself out of this slump if he made some major changes and got rid of a few people.

Of course, hes very much about the personal loyalty thing so i dont expect him to start getting rid of anyone that in his mind has served him well, Rove inluded.

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While Baalzamon is indeed an idiot, I'm fairly certain he was being facetious.
I'm actually very surprised that anyone took that seriously.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Nov 1st, 2005, 07:25 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
Frist accused the Democrats of 'hijacking congress.' Good Lord! THe R's hold a slim majority and have used it for five years as if they posessed an overwhelming mandate from the American People instead of routinely getting their way by 51%.
Yeah, one of the most remarkable things about these Republicans is that it has taken them basically a decade to become as corrupt and arrogant as nearly a century in power did to the Democrats.

Frist: "In recent history, this just hasn't been done. And this lack of respect, the lack of civility is a real affront," Frist said. He said Rule 21 had been invoked only rarely and with "mutual conversation" between the leaders of both parties.

He also called it an assault upon him, Congress, and entire country. I mean, dumping your stock on a healthcare investment, that's ok. Going on national television, flaunting the fact that you're a doctor, a then telling the nation that you just aren't sure that AIDS can't transmit through tears, that's ok. But the Democrats, invoking an actual congressional rule, that's just outrageous!

I love the fact that he basically said "well, look, we only use these rules when we agree that we're not going to make a big deal out of anything."
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Nov 2nd, 2005, 11:37 AM       
Don't forget diagnosing Terri Schiavo based on a video tape. That was very doctorly of him. He really is a bag of shit, even in a whole roomfull of bags of shit.
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Old Nov 3rd, 2005, 04:00 PM       
Yeah, like Congress.

Are we still discussing Plame here? Is this a good time to remind you all that, what was it... TWO YEARS AGO I was saying that this would all turn out to be a long, drawn out non-issue that would only wind up leaving the D's with even more egg on their faces?

Think about it: Covert is a two way street. Plame was not covert the moment her non-qualified political hack husband was shipped over to Niger with no confidentiality agreement and under no requirement to deliver any sort of written report upon his return. Max, if the CIA contracted you to conduct an extensive investigation of Dick Cheney's bathroom habits, providing you with all of the necessary super cool spy gear to do the job thoroughly, knowing full well of your hate for the man as well as your willingness to broadcast your findings to the furthest reaches of the internet, would you consider that a covert mission?

Scooter Libby will go to trial with a license to subpeona any and all members of the dad-blasted Lib'ral media Rove chooses in order to turn a perjury trial into a full-blown investigation of exactly how the media has been involved in their side of the War on Terror. Think this will all synch up with next year's election campaigns? Libby's quick resignation will make sure that none of that perjury stink sticks to the GOP... all they'll have to say if it's brought up is that at least their guy had the integrity to step down when accused of the same crime of which Clinton, your guy, was accused.

When it all comes down to it, NOBODY will be indicted of outing any sort of covert CIA agent, because no one did. If Joe and Valerie don't wind up in front of a GOP led investigation panel at some politically expedient time real soon, I'll admit I was wrong on that one point... but only that one... all the rest of my predictions will come true.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Nov 3rd, 2005, 06:23 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
Are we still discussing Plame here? Is this a good time to remind you all that, what was it... TWO YEARS AGO I was saying that this would all turn out to be a long, drawn out non-issue that would only wind up leaving the D's with even more egg on their faces?
Yeah, well, get back to us when that actually happens....


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When it all comes down to it, NOBODY will be indicted of outing any sort of covert CIA agent, because no one did. If Joe and Valerie don't wind up in front of a GOP led investigation panel at some politically expedient time real soon, I'll admit I was wrong on that one point... but only that one... all the rest of my predictions will come true.
Just like Watergate was about more than breaking into a hotel, and Clinton...gate(?) was about more than simply a blow job. The bottom line isthat the country is clearly down on everybody, so to assume that this is going to just blow over is nonsense.

Besides, this particular discussion is about omre than simply Plame. It's about what happened in the Senate, WMDs, and calling out the GOP in Congress on conducting a proper investigation into that whole mess.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 09:17 AM       
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollV...ory?id=1278080
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 09:45 AM       
Those poll #'s are staggering. I wish Vinth was still a real member. I'd post this in my "Chickens coming home to roost thread" where he said I was grasping at straws. I guess more than half of America is grasping at the same straws.
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 09:46 AM       
The vast majority of normal voters don't have the depth of perception required to see the Plame part of your giant scandal, much less what lies beneath. Give it the Mom Test: Ask a relative that votes and is reasonably informed about what's going on in the larger world what they think about Plamegate. Get ready for a bad answer, if not a blank stare.

The subtleties that lead you to believe this is a major scandal are just too complex for people to grasp. Watergate became a publically tangible thing once something as simple as breaking and entering entered the picture. Yes, there was more to it, but none of thatr would have mattered without the traction of public "understanding."

There was more to the various Clinton "scandals" that might have earned public outrage had the details been easier to grasp. Iran/Contra was on the verge, and never really got the attention it deserved.

And so the story goes...
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 09:55 AM       
I don't think you're wrong, and I think complexity is exactly what kept the Iran/Contra scandal from taking on the proportions it should have. I think combined with Americas dawning realization that this emperor never had any clothes it has the potential to swell to watergate size.

Personally, I don't really think it wil, because of Fitzgeralds prosecuturial style which is to go for very speciffic crimes he thinks he can prove and ignore anyon'es further speculation. That leaves two unknowns. How mad is the press at Bush and at themselves for being such lazy sheep, and will the Dems win back a house at the midterms.

I think the Plame case could be the bent corner that could be peeled back ala Watergate, an entry point to the larger picture. But without the press or the ability to wage an investigation we could limp along for quite some time.

There's another interesting but potentially frightening scenario. Republican rebellion. As of today W's poll #'s are the lowest since his dad lost. If they go lower and some of the rats start believing the sinking ship is unsalvagable...
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 11:42 AM       
"Watergate became a publically tangible thing once something as simple as breaking and entering entered the picture."

Wasn't there something about forgeries? That's pretty publically tangible, anybody can understand a bogus contract or a forged check.
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 11:48 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
The subtleties that lead you to believe this is a major scandal are just too complex for people to grasp. Watergate became a publically tangible thing once something as simple as breaking and entering entered the picture. Yes, there was more to it, but none of thatr would have mattered without the traction of public "understanding."
Isn't the media sending the message that the story is "white house officials may have leaked name of Joe Wilson's wife to silence other dissenters"?

Also, in regards to the mom test, my mom didn't know any details of the CIA leak scandal. Or the Watergate scandal. Or the name of the guy who ran against Alan Keyes in the last election.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 12:43 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
The vast majority of normal voters don't have the depth of perception required to see the Plame part of your giant scandal, much less what lies beneath. Give it the Mom Test: Ask a relative that votes and is reasonably informed about what's going on in the larger world what they think about Plamegate. Get ready for a bad answer, if not a blank stare.
I think you assume an awful lot, and I think you have probably indoctrinated your family members beyond all hope.

Again, By saying "what do you think of this Plame scandal?" is the wrong way to phrase it, and it isn't why public opinion polls are down so low.

People see karl Rove on trial, they hear the name "Scooter" Libby thrown around, and all they know is that the White House is in trouble.

Forget the Mom test. I prefer the Jay Leno test. When scandals become synonymous with Republicans, and ineffectiveness becomes synonymous with Democrats, you know that a certain theme has crept into the minds of the "average" voter. When you become a late night punchline, you've been framed. Good luck getting out of that.

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The subtleties that lead you to believe this is a major scandal are just too complex for people to grasp. Watergate became a publically tangible thing once something as simple as breaking and entering entered the picture. Yes, there was more to it, but none of thatr would have mattered without the traction of public "understanding."
But there is something tangible here, and it's about political tricks and payback. Karl Rove has been turned into this big evil boogey man, primarily by the Left and the media, but that doesn't mean a lot of what gets said about him isn't true. He has a track record for this shit, and the lesson here (indictment or no indictment) is that Karl ROve uses dirty tricks, and he finally got caught.

Ask a relative about Plame and you very well may get that blank stare. Ask them about Karl Rove, and you may get something different (no matter how many Op/Eds his buddy Novak writes to dismiss this).
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Nov 4th, 2005, 05:44 PM       
I have honestly never tried to indoctrinate any of my family. I rarely talk politics with them at all. I think they pretty much know where I stand... maybe they even assume I'm some sort of Republican. If asked I'll answer, but I leave my evangelization to message boards.

White Houses are ALWAYS taking heat for something. Yes, I'm sure there's a correlation between the message the media is sending and W's poll numbers, but I am also on record as saying that I believe the American public has figured out polls and use them to communicate more than just participate. We can't just say that because his approval rating is down that most American's believe he's doing a bad job anymore. We have to ask, "What do they want to see here? What are they trying to say with these responses?"

I really don't want to get into a tangental discussion about opinion polling. I think this way, and that factors into my own opinion making process in regard to how I weight polling data. Please don't feel that I'm trying to change your opinions on the subject. Please also don't think, though, that I'm wetting my pants over W's numbers right now. It's all just part of the game.

Everything that's happening right now is stuff that was anticipated. When the whole Wilson/Plame thing opened up, Karl Rove did not sit back in his chair and say, "Well, we'll just cross that bridge when we come to it, fellas." A strategy was developed then, and all this is part of it. Yes, Rove is an SOB, and this is why. Libby's taking one for the team, though there's more to it than just self-sacrifice I'm sure.

One thing's for sure, it's uncommon for an actual head to roll in this White House, so it's notable. Expect something big to happen. Watch for the trial... that'll be it.

Rove's patterns are obvious at this point. He fakes left and passes right.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Nov 5th, 2005, 11:40 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
.White Houses are ALWAYS taking heat for something. Yes, I'm sure there's a correlation between the message the media is sending and W's poll numbers, but I am also on record as saying that I believe the American public has figured out polls and use them to communicate more than just participate.
I'm really interested in this statement. I have no friggin idea what it means, but I am intrigued.


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We can't just say that because his approval rating is down that most American's believe he's doing a bad job anymore. We have to ask, "What do they want to see here? What are they trying to say with these responses?"
Um, I suppose you might be right, but why don't we try to answer those questions for him:

"What do they want to see here?"

1. The U.S. out of Iraq (i.e. war without casualties)?
2. Lower gas prices?
3. Competent judicial appointments?
4. Better handling of the economy?
5. Better handling of Hurricane Katrina's aftermath?
6. A better job on just about everything other than the war on terrorism (which is even taking a dive)?

Now look at those possible questions that might be surmised from current polls, and tell me which ones you think this president is likely to tackly before 2008, let ALONE 2006???? I think i say this all of the time to you, but I'm a firm cynic and believer that politics generally has very little to do with substantive policy. I think when you ask a citizen if the president is doing a good or bad job, probably no more than 2 or 3 things pop into their head, and they're generally going to be the 2 or 3 most prominent things in the news media at that time.



Quote:
I really don't want to get into a tangental discussion about opinion polling. I think this way, and that factors into my own opinion making process in regard to how I weight polling data. Please don't feel that I'm trying to change your opinions on the subject. Please also don't think, though, that I'm wetting my pants over W's numbers right now. It's all just part of the game.
Right, and the game is called "legacy." In the game of legacy, it often isn't about the particular things you did while in office, but rather, the mood of the country when you left it.

BTW, I hope you're not one of those polling naysayers who thinks that all polls are concocted in a liberal laboratory somewhere. I too am often critical of polling, and probably used to be one of those naysyers myself. But I think polling, if done right (and there are debates over what that is), can be an excellent way to get a feel of the general public's mood.

Conservatives however are totally right about exit polling, but I digress.

Quote:
Everything that's happening right now is stuff that was anticipated. When the whole Wilson/Plame thing opened up, Karl Rove did not sit back in his chair and say, "Well, we'll just cross that bridge when we come to it, fellas." A strategy was developed then, and all this is part of it. Yes, Rove is an SOB, and this is why. Libby's taking one for the team, though there's more to it than just self-sacrifice I'm sure.
I think even you are buying a little bit too much into the media's version of Karl Rove. I think you're absolutely right about them having a strategy, but has it worked so far? The investigation isn't over yet, and while Libby is taking one for the team, the press is still talking about Fitzy. Again, poll numbers are down, and I think the hype around this scandal plays a big role in that.
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