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Old Mar 14th, 2007, 04:45 PM        Will Gonzales get fired?
Just about every editorial page in the country has said the AG should step down. The Dallas Texas paper came pretty close to saying it.

What do you all think?

I think he needs to go. Either he knew and approved that DA's (republican appointed DA's) were being fired for not pushing the administration agenda OR he let eight DA's get canned without ever involving himself in the process at all, which coupled with the whole FBI breaking the law thing would say to me that he can't or doesn't know how to do his job.

It's the regularly asked Bush apponitee question:

Totally corrupt or completely incompetant?
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Old Mar 14th, 2007, 06:58 PM       

I think it's called the Peter Principle when you are promoted to a position of incompetence.
An interesting question is if the incompetence causes the corruption because they just don't know what to do so they just say, "Fuck it." It could even work vice versa but that would require some extra stuff to happen (such as corruption leading to being in a position of incompetence, like cheating to get a job or something).

Either of those are possibilities ;o
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Old Mar 14th, 2007, 07:53 PM       
No, he won't. I can't believe you are getting this worked up over this. He shouldn't have apologized as far as that goes, really... Kevin already pointed out what I figured you must already have known, though I'm starting to wonder if maybe you just blacked the Clinton years out altogether... Don't you remember Janet Reno firing ALL the US attorneys? I'm not saying that's worse so this is forgivable, just that it's what they can and do do. Yes, it's political in nature. It always is. It's part of a US attorney's job. It's a political position, and if you don't pull your political weight for the political people that politically installed you, you get politically fired and politically replaced.

Oh, wait... maybe it's me that's senile... I forgot the Max Template: (Bush Staffer) + Something... ANYTHING! = He/She should most definitely resign... I mean, that's just the right thing to do in one of these Something... ANYTHING! situations, right? It's a valid strategy at least. I suppose I have to give you points for being consistent. If the Bush administration was fully following your personell advice, everybody from Cheney to Barney would have had to quit over Something... ANYTHING! by now. They would surely have had to have hired and subsequently fired every single Republican in the country by now, and would have had to start resorting to hiring Democrats to keep the government running. You crafty devil! I see what you're doing!
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Old Mar 14th, 2007, 11:52 PM       
Might I point out the fundamental difference between this and the "b-b-b-b-but.... but Clinton!" argument?

Under Clinton, any Federal Prosecutor appointed to replace those fired still had to go through Senate confirmation. Now (Thanks, PATRIOT ACT!), El Presidente can pick people without all that pesky "checks and balances" nonsense.

Sorry to interrupt. Please continue with the "everything is super" rhetoric.

Oh, and Preech, there's a LOT of deplorable shit over which Bush and Co. (AND OTHER ADMINISTRATIONS) should have resigned and haven't, but I guess that's one of those benefits of not having a conscience.
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 12:34 AM       
Honestly, I am really not arguing that. To me, the easiest method for completely writing off a person on moral grounds is to have him or her win an election. If I actually thought "everything is super" I probably wouldn't be posting as much when this stuff comes up. I think things are inadvertently going to work out for the best, despite the best misguided efforts of the leaders involved. George W Bush's positions on terrorism and globalization might come from the wrong place, but the big efforts being made toward his admittedly unthoughtful ends are serving "my" ultimate goals, so I can live with it.

The people I read are also talking to John Kerry and all that jazz, and those folks also seem to be on board as best they can... BUT only in as much as they or any other politician can come to grips with the reality of the situation.
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 12:20 PM       
Preech doesn't think all things are super. BUT if I get him correctly, (tell me if I don't) he thinks all bad behavior is equal bad behavior, and I strongly disagree.

Dude. Asked to testify before congress, Gonzales said 'Mistakes were made'. Hmmmm. What should anybody in politics know about that line? Why is it so naggingly familiar? Where have I- OH THAT'S RIGHT, IT'S THE EXACT CHOICE OF WORDS NIXON USED IN REFERENCE TO WATERGATE that people have made fun of him over for decades! It falls in the same category as "If the Pressident does it then it's not illegal" and "I was only following orders".

If the AG doesn't know not to phrase his blundering and or malfeasance any other way, he shouldn't have a drivers liscence, let alone be top cop.

Plus, what Sspad said. t comes back to checks and balances ovber and over and over. Bush co don't like 'em, because as bad as previous dogs have smelled, these dogs smell worse.
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 12:54 PM       
I know I already said this, but it was buried in with a bunch of other words, so maybe you missed... I'M NOT SYAING THAT'S WORSE SO THIS IS FORGIVEABLE. So, No, I don't think all bad behavior is equal. I wasn't comparing the two types of behavior. I was providing a very good example to highlight how this is not bad nor abnormal behavior.
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 01:39 PM       
Quote:
I was providing a very good example to highlight how this is not bad nor abnormal behavior.
No words in the English language can explain how vehemently I disagree with this. CHECKS AND BALANCES CHECKS AND BALANCES CHECKS AND GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING BALANCES I WILL SAY IT OVER AND OVER until people start realizing how truly dangerous this behavior has become.

You show me another administration that has so consistently so thoroughly trodden on and circumvented the Constitution, and I will shut up.

Until then.....

CHECKS AND BALANCES CHECKS AND BALANCES...... etc.....
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 01:49 PM       
From Slate:

The White House and DoJ are now under fire because, in disrespecting the post of U.S. attorney, they appeared to interfere with the independence of that office in a way that's unprecedented. In the previous quarter-century, according to the Congressional Research Service, no more than five and perhaps only two U.S. attorneys, out of 486 appointed by a president and confirmed by the Senate, have been similarly forced out—in the middle of a presidential term for reasons not related to misconduct. "It would be unprecedented for the Department of Justice or the president to ask for the resignations of United States attorneys during an administration, except in rare instances of misconduct or for other significant cause," White said when she testified in February about the Bush firings before much was known about them. Previous midterm removals include those of a Reagan U.S. attorney fired and convicted for leaking confidential information and a Clinton appointee who resigned under pressure after he lost a major drug case and allegedly went to an adult club and bit a topless dancer on the arm. This time, the stories are quite different.
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 02:41 PM       
That first linked report (the Congressional Resource Summary one) didn't take into account dismissals that happened at the beginning of a new Presidential term, like Janet Reno's dismissal of no less than 93 (or ALL) of the US Attorneys on March 24th, 1993. Oh, wait... March isn't the beginning of a new term... Hmmm... I'm sure there's some sort of reasonable explanation for there being no mention of that event in that summary. Let's see... The summary accounts for the time period between 81 and 06, so that's not it... I betcha it's got something to do with "left office before completion of their four-year terms..." So, I guess all 93 of those people must have been in their positions for at least four years when they were axed. I guess that makes it Ok, right? Whatever the reason for the ommission, I think that we know it happened and it's not addressed indicates a very narrow view of history in this regard.

For instance, how do we know how long these people typically serve? Is it customary for a new President to start fresh with his own people? Do they often serve for more than 4 years? Before we can start tagging this a freak, unprecedented anomoly and thus despicably evil, shouldn't we know that kind of stuff? Another thing: As far as your checks and balances, the Legislative Branch freely gave away their power to hold confirmation hearings on these guys. While it's currently working on legislation to get that power back, this is not a usurpation of power by the Executive Branch here. Congress screwed up, and they're working on fixing it.
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How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 03:01 PM       
Yeah, I concede that Congress signed off on the deal, so they're not guilt-free. I hope that they do fix it.

Sometimes the people in charge frustrate me so much, it feels like screaming is about all that's left to do.
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Old Mar 15th, 2007, 09:45 PM       
Well, I hate it for you. Please don't pin your hopes on whoever happens to be in charge as of 08, cause I guarantee it's gonna be SOSDD, if not even worse, as far as political heroism goes. I have yet to see a contender that would stand a chance against Bush 04 or Clinton 96, which is just sad. Welcome to the era of American Idiocracy.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Mar 16th, 2007, 02:58 PM       
It's a late welcome.

I think Gonzales is a gonner at this point. The story hasn't stayed the same from the Whitehouse for even a news cycle, Republicans are begining to call for his ouster, and the President has said Gonzales 'enjoys his complete confidence', which is almost always beurocries for "I'm just about to fire you."
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Old Mar 20th, 2007, 09:35 AM       
WASHINGTON - President Bush sent a powerful message of support Tuesday for embattled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, calling his longtime friend to express unwavering support in the face of calls for his resignation.


Isn't this kid of like when a Mafia Don kisses you?
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Old Mar 20th, 2007, 02:44 PM       
AP- the Senate by a 94-2 vote passed a bill that would cancel the attorney general's power to appoint U.S. attorneys without Senate confirmation.
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Old Mar 21st, 2007, 09:58 AM       
Attorney Scandal Without Precedent: CRS Report Reveals Audacity of Dismissals
By Scott Lilly
The Center for American Progress

Tuesday 20 March 2007
Defenders of the Bush administration's decision to fire eight U.S. Attorneys in December have argued that the move was not out of the ordinary since those appointed to that position are presidential appointees and thus serve at the leisure of the president.
The argument is that if the president wants to weed out those who have been less than satisfactory by whatever subjective standard the president or his staff may wish to apply, then there is no reason that he cannot take away what he has given. Critics of the move agree that the president may have the power to appoint U.S. Attorneys, but argue that these positions should not be manipulated as if they were pieces in a game of political chess.
One question that has remained unresolved is the extent to which the view put forth by the Bush administration matches that of previous administrations. Is the White House and Justice Department today practicing business as usual? Or is this a complete break from past practice and an unprecedented move?
That question appears to be largely resolved by a Congressional Research Service report on the issue released yesterday. CRS examined the tenure of all U.S. Attorneys who were confirmed by the Senates between the years 1981 and 2006 to determine how many had served-and of those how many had been forced to resign for reasons other than a change in administration.
The answer is that of the 468 confirmations made by the Senate over the 25-year period, only 10 left office involuntarily for reasons other than a change in administration prior to the firings that took place in December, according to the available evidence gathered by CRS. The average incidence of such involuntary departures was one out of every two-and-a-half years; the largest number of such departures prior to this administration was a total of four departures during the Clinton administration.
But the December firings by the Bush administration stand in even more stark contrast with the firings that took place in previous administrations when the grounds for the departures are examined. In virtually all instances prior to the December firings, including two previous departures during this administration, serious issues of personal or professional conduct appeared to be the driving issue.
Prior to December, for example, only two U.S. Attorneys were outright fired. The first was William Kennedy, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of California. The Christian Science Monitor on Apr. 26, 1982 explained that he was dismissed "for charging that the Justice Department, at the request of the Central Intelligence Agency, was blocking his attempt to prosecute Mr. [Miguel] Nassar [Haro], because he had been a key CIA informant on Mexican and Central American affairs."
The second, J. William Petro, U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Ohio, was dismissed (according to the Oct. 3, 1984 edition of The New York Times) because the Department of Justice was "investigating allegations that Mr. Petro disclosed information about an indictment pending from an undercover operation and that the information reached a subject of the investigation." Petro was later convicted of the charges.
The CRS report identifies six other U.S. Attorneys who resigned during the 25-year period who were implicated in news reports of "questionable conduct." These included:
  • Frank L. McNamara, Jr., U.S. Attorney for the District of Massachusetts who resigned because "he was the target of an internal probe," into "whether he had lied to federal officials," according to a Jan. 31, 1989 report in The Boston Globe.
  • Larry Colleton, the U.S. Attorney for the Middle District of Florida resigned in Jul. 1994 after he was "videotaped grabbing Jacksonville television reporter Richard Rose by the throat," according to local press reports.
  • Kendall Coffey, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, resigned on May 12, 1996, according to news reports, "amid accusations that he bit a topless dancer on the arm during a visit to an adult club."
  • Michael Troop, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Kentucky, who resigned to become State Police Commissioner. Later reports indicated that he was under investigation at the time by the Justice Department for sexual harassment.
  • Karl Kasey, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of West Virginia, who according to news reports "abruptly left office after the Justice Department began investigating e-mails in which offered to secretly assist a GOP candidate."
In two other cases, there were no apparent issues of personal or professional misconduct. Michael Yamaguchi, U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of California, appears to have been a victim of disapproving federal judges. The CRS report sites news reports in 1998 stating that he was "apparently squeezed out by the local federal bench and his bosses in the U.S. Justice Department."
The only instance other than the recent firings in which there was no apparent explanation for a forced resignation also occurred during the Bush administration. Thomas DiBiagio, U.S. Attorney for the District of Maryland resigned in 2005. Recent news reports indicate that he "was forced from office," but there has been no explanation as to why.
It is clear that of the four administrations that controlled the executive branch of government during the past quarter-century, only the current administration has held the view that U.S. Attorney can or should be removed absent serious cause. In no instance is there any indication of a removal because a U.S. attorney failed to meet certain political criteria, such as prosecuting cases that were considered too sensitive to partisan issues or failing to prosecute cases that would be helpful from a partisan perspective.
The innovative philosophy of the current Bush administration with respect to the service of U.S. Attorneys is worthy of the attention it is now receiving. Those eight forced resignations threaten the very basis of our justice system-to quote the words written above the pillars on the west front of the Supreme Court, "Equal Justice Under Law."
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Old Mar 23rd, 2007, 10:27 AM       
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-talking23mar23,0,6549303.story?page=2&coll=la-home-headlines

A history of replacing U.S. attorneys

The GOP says Clinton first politicized the Justice Department. But numbers show an older pattern.
By David G. Savage
Times Staff Writer

March 23, 2007

WASHINGTON — Three weeks ago, Justice Department officials settled on a "talking point" to rebut the chorus of Democratic accusations that the Bush administration had wrongly injected politics into law enforcement when it dismissed eight U.S. attorneys.

Why not focus on the Clinton administration's having "fired all 93 U.S. attorneys" when Janet Reno became attorney general in March 1993? The idea was introduced in a memo from a Justice Department spokeswoman.

The message has been effective. What's followed has been a surge of complaints on blogs and talk radio that it was the Clinton administration that first politicized the Justice Department.

The facts, it turns out, are more complicated.

In a March 4 memo titled "Draft Talking Points," Justice Department spokeswoman Tasia Scolinos asked, "The [White House] is under the impression that we did not remove all the Clinton [U.S. attorneys] in 2001 like he did when he took office. Is that true?"

That is mostly true, replied D. Kyle Sampson, then chief of staff to Atty. Gen. Alberto R. Gonzales. "Clinton fired all Bush [U.S. attorneys] in one fell swoop. We fired all Clinton [U.S. attorneys] but staggered it out more and permitted some to stay on a few months," he said.

A few minutes later, Deputy Atty. Gen. Paul J. McNulty replied to the same memo.

"On the issue of Clinton [U.S. attorneys], we called each one and had them give us a timeframe. Most were gone by late April. In contrast, Clinton [Justice Department] told all but a dozen in early March to be gone immediately," McNulty said.

The difference appears minor. Both McNulty and Sampson acknowledged that the Bush administration, like the Clinton administration, brought in a new slate of U.S. attorneys within a few months of taking office.

But historical data compiled by the Senate show the pattern going back to President Reagan.

Reagan replaced 89 of the 93 U.S. attorneys in his first two years in office. President Clinton had 89 new U.S. attorneys in his first two years, and President Bush had 88 new U.S. attorneys in his first two years.

In a similar vein, the Justice Department recently supplied Congress with a district-by-district listing of U.S. attorneys who served prior to the Bush administration.

The list shows that in 1981, Reagan's first year in office, 71 of 93 districts had new U.S. attorneys. In 1993, Clinton's first year, 80 of 93 districts had new U.S. attorneys.

Nonetheless, the idea that Clinton and Reno broke with precedent and fired all U.S. attorneys upon taking office has played a key role in the public debate in recent weeks. In conservative media and on talk radio, Reno's abrupt firing of all the U.S. attorneys had been described as extreme and unprecedented.

Tom Corbett, Pennsylvania's attorney general, knows the story firsthand.

"I am the one who took the message," he said in an interview Wednesday.

In 1993, he was the U.S. attorney in Pittsburgh and the liaison between the outgoing George H.W. Bush administration and the incoming Clinton administration. "We had been asking them for months: 'When do you want our resignations?' " he said.

The answer came in a meeting with Webster Hubbell, the associate attorney general, in mid-March. "He said, 'I have good news and bad news. The good news is the attorney general wants you to stay until your successor is confirmed. The bad news is she wants your resignations by the end of the week,' " Corbett said.

He said the demand for resignations by the week's end was surprising.

"We knew this was coming, but it broke with tradition to do it this way," he said. "It didn't make for a smooth transition. By the end of that week, they had backed off a bit. Over the course of the next few months, they made the changes. It was how the message was delivered more than what actually occurred."

Despite Reno's request for all of their resignations, some U.S. attorneys stayed on the job for several more months.

In Los Angeles, for example, Terree A. Bowers, a Republican, became the interim U.S. attorney in 1992, and he served through 1993, Clinton's first year in office.

Nora Manella, Clinton's choice for the post, took over in 1994.

In Pittsburgh, Corbett says he stayed in office until August, when a new Clinton appointee won confirmation.

In New Jersey, Michael Chertoff, a 1990 appointee of President George H.W. Bush, continued into the Clinton administration before leaving in 1994. He is now the Homeland Security secretary.

In western Michigan, John Smietanka, a Reagan appointee, served until the beginning of 1994. "I knew I would be resigning, but I wasn't sure of the timing. I ended up serving for one year of the Clinton administration," he said.

His predecessor, James S. Brady, served as U.S. attorney in Grand Rapids, Mich., during the Carter administration.

"When Carter lost in November of 1980, I resigned," said Brady, who later became president of the National Assn. of Former U.S. Attorneys. "Nobody asked me, but that's the tradition of the office. U.S. attorneys serve at the pleasure of the president, and when a new administration comes in, everybody knows you will have a new U.S. attorney."

There have been local exceptions to this rule.

In New York, former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan — a Democrat who had served in Republican administrations — persuaded several presidents to allow U.S. attorneys to continue in office after a change of administrations.

In Manhattan, for example, Robert Fiske, a President Ford appointee in 1976, served throughout the Carter administration.

And a Carter appointee, John S. Martin, served during the first years of the Reagan administration.

Many former U.S. attorneys draw a sharp distinction between the political nature of the appointment and the apolitical role of law enforcement.

"The process of selection is political, but once you are there, you can't be political," said Daniel French, who was a Clinton-appointed U.S. attorney in Syracuse, N.Y.

"I don't think there is anything wrong with [former White House Counsel] Harriet Miers saying, 'We want all new people in office.' "

But he said the administration would cross the line if it interfered in a politically sensitive prosecution.

Tom Heffelfinger, a former U.S. attorney from Minnesota who served under Bush — as well as in the elder Bush's administration — said a White House move to fire a large number of U.S. attorneys was quite different from replacing the appointees of a previous administration.

"In my opinion, it is not comparable," said Heffelfinger, a Republican who resigned voluntarily from his Justice Department post last year.

"When you have a transition between presidents — especially presidents of different parties — a U.S. attorney anticipates that you will be replaced in due course. But the unwritten, No. 1 rule at [the Justice Department] is that once you become a U.S. attorney you have to leave politics at the door," he said.

Democrats in the House and Senate say they intend to press ahead with their investigation to determine whether partisan politics played a role in the dismissal of the eight U.S. attorneys.

For their part, Republican leaders counter that politics is driving the investigation.

Sen. Mel Martinez (R-Fla.), the GOP party chairman, sent out a message Wednesday accusing Democrats of "feigning outrage" over the Justice Department's actions.

"There is no question that U.S. attorneys, like all political appointees, serve at the pleasure of the president," Martinez said. "That was true when Bill Clinton's Justice Department replaced all 93 U.S. attorneys, and it remains true today."


david.savage@latimes.com

Times staff writer Tom Hamburger contributed to this report.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Mar 23rd, 2007, 05:00 PM       
I don't disagree that the initial replacement of DA's when a new party comes into office is the modern norm. That isn't what's happening. The W boys already did that when he first came into office. This is a second round, a purge of people they hired who turned out not to be "Bushy" enough, AND this round of replacements went with no congressional oversight.

DA's replaced during a second term with no oversight. THAT is what's unprecedented. It's happened before very rarely, and in cases of Da's biting strippers.

And it's a problem because it sends the message that it's not enough to be of the Presidents party, you need to be using prosecution to actively advance the Presidents agenda or you are in danger of being fired.

But no one is seriously questioning the legality of replacing the AG's. President's pleasure and all that. And now that a near unanimous vote has taken away W's power to just name any bozo (see, I think I said before that not reading bills before signing them into law is a nauseating practice and it boggles the mind that we don't expect at least this from our elected representatives) this won't happen as blatantly in the future.

But I think if you want to fire a perfectly good AG with a good performance evaluation who you hired in the first place so you can replace them with someone who'll be more slavish, nd hold that over the head of other AG's, than the public should know that's what you're doing, so they can decide if they want people who do that running the country. Yes, you are legally allowed to do it, but lets call a spade a spade. They wanted to have their cake and eat it, they played the game very badly and now they are getting a public spanking, which is good. They aren't just corrupt and cynical, they are corrupt, cynical and lazy. That's a potentially dangerous combo platter, and they need to get bitch slapped for it.
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Old Mar 27th, 2007, 11:18 AM       
USA TODAY WASHINGTON — Americans overwhelmingly support a congressional investigation into White House involvement in the firing of eight U.S. attorneys, and they say President Bush and his aides should answer questions about it without invoking executive privilege.
In a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken Friday-Sunday, respondents said by nearly 3-to-1 that Congress should issue subpoenas to force White House officials to testify.
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Old Mar 29th, 2007, 03:50 PM       
Apparently I'm the only one following this story, but Gonzo's ex chief id staff just testified under oath that Gonzo lied to congress.
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Old Mar 29th, 2007, 10:23 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank View Post
Apparently I'm the only one following this story...
Yes, you are the only one here that is so completely and entirely engulfed in utter hatred for our current head politician that he can't focus on anything else other than the current iteration of the ongoing campaign to discredit anything even remotely connected to him.

Honestly, max... What is he to you, the King Midas of Evil?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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sspadowsky sspadowsky is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2007, 09:29 AM       
What's wrong with wanting to see some of these arrogant sons-of-bitches get their comeuppance? Granted, considering all the shit this administration has pulled, it would be like getting Al Capone for tax evasion instead of all those murders, but still- as much as they've done, it would be nice to see any of them pay for at least part of it.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2007, 11:28 AM       
He's my great white whale, Preech. The Kirk to my Kahn.

No, seriously, though, and I've said this before. If I read you right, you think the levels of corruption and danger to the nation posed by this administration is on a par with the general, permanent background level of corruption of most administrations.

I think W's administration (and the administration I hate, not just it's dimwitted, churlish carved wooden figurehead) has lept ahead into a whole new area of thuggish manipulation and has attempted things that would have made Nixon blush. Well, no, not exactly, since I think Nixon had many similar long term goals (and I think a large part of the flavor of this administration is directly related to things the old Nixon hands failed to achieve that time around). But Nixon would never have dreamed of going where W et al have gone.

That's my opinion, and it's why I hate them so much. Now no one has to agree, but I'm not really out in the wilderness on this one. A large group of renowned presidential scholars actively debate whether Bush is the worst President in American history.

The AG scandal is in some ways ridiculous. I think it shows a massive level of completely uneccassary lying, and there are so many, many areas more important to me. But I think this admin. has been so bad, it's like a massive underground oil field. Anywhere, anywhere you choose to drill, huge gouts of cronieism, cynicism, contempt for the rule of law and the constitution, grotesque levels of personal enrichment etc. etc. etc will come gushing up.

The AG scandal to me is emblematic of the administration. Expose it to the light of day and the very, very best you can say is it's a case of massive incompetence, the kind of shit anybody would fired from their jobs for on a daily basis. That's if you buy there was no corruption and no lieing at all.

Yes, politics is ugly, and there are always similarities between this admins bullshit and others. But there are similarities between breaking your finger in a car door and a fatal collision that forces your indentifaction via dental records.
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Old Mar 30th, 2007, 01:50 PM       
I don't deny that Bush pushes limits and breaks rules. I agree that his administration has been full of bad actors that have been pulling our government into the dark abyss for 30 years or more. Every elected administration is subject to mostly the same set of shadowy cigarette-smoking-men with disturbing agendas. Government of any kind has always been and always will be extremely suseptible to corruption. The original American Republic was built with protections against that known threat, but We The People traded it for pork-filled Democracy.

I have been accused of being naive many, many, many, many times. I guess I come off as overly optimistic somehow, though I share a similar sort of brooding cynicism to your own. You would use the unique power of government guns to tax the hell out everybody in order to equalize all people on the belief that one man's money can be used to abuse other people. Government is the one entity in our society with which we entrust the power to kill in our name. I think we need to SEVERLY limit where, why, when and how we utilize it, and by we I also mean presidents. All of them.

You don't like one form of government abuse, yet you'd love to see government abused in other ways. It's all the same thing. The government you could abuse to equalize us is the government that can also be abused by Dick Cheney. In for a penny, in for a pound.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 30th, 2007, 02:36 PM       
What, your an anarchist now?
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