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Big Papa Goat Big Papa Goat is offline
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Old Aug 11th, 2003, 01:56 PM        Liberalism=Totalitarianism?
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He has a Constitutional right now only to possess an opinion, but to share it. Would you infringe upon his personal rights simply because you find them undesirable? If so, I would much appreciate you creating a seperate thread so we can discuss the tendancy of liberal philosophy to veer towards totalitarianism.
Alright, I'll start a thread on this.
As I said in my reply on the original thread, there aren't any situations where a liberal governement or regime became totalitarian. If you look at the three big examples, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and Communist China, you will not see succesful liberal philosophies at work in these nations before or during their transformations to totalitarianism.
The situations in these three examples before turning to totalitarianism were all extremely bad. Germany had massive inflation, unemployment, and was under the boot of foreign European powers, paticularly France.
Russia, before Communism was under the corrupt and authoritarian rule of the Czars. There was a huge gap between rich and poor, and the lower class still had few rights. To make matters worse, the war with Germany was going very badly, making food and supplies scarce.
China had a similar situation as Russia, with a vast gap between the rural peasants and their feudal-esque landowners. To top it all off, the Japanese were waging a brutal war against the Chinese people, committing terrible atrocities and making life pretty bad for the Chinese.

In all these examples, small groups of well organized, strong willed people rose up and offered the people a solution to their problems... the Communist parties of Russia and China lead by Lenin and Mao, the Nazi party under Hitler all offered an easy way out of misery, and so the people supported them. After these individuals consolidated their power, they sought to preserve it through the evil system of totalitarianism.
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Old Aug 11th, 2003, 03:30 PM       
Personally, I think Ror made much too big of a deal about it. It wasn't like that was the first time anyone had ever told somebody to shut up on this board.
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Old Aug 11th, 2003, 03:50 PM       
True, but I still think the larger topic deserves some discussion
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Old Aug 11th, 2003, 04:13 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanette X
Personally, I think Ror made much too big of a deal about it. It wasn't like that was the first time anyone had ever told somebody to shut up on this board.
I guarantee it won't be the last.

anyway, you really are making this a bigger deal than it was meant to be, Goat.
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Old Aug 11th, 2003, 05:11 PM       
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The trick is to make sure that your government is so big that no one person has absolute power. That way, no one gets the chance to appoint themself as president-for-life or whatever.
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Old Aug 11th, 2003, 05:47 PM       
I was being a bit melodramatic, but I'll reply to this. I have to dig some of my books out of my suitcase now to properly present my case so count on a real reply tomorrow, or possible the day after.

I leave for Virginia in three weeks so things are a bit disorderly now.

Oh, and by the by, do not confuse national socialism, with fascism with totalitarianism. They are all seperate animals.
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Old Aug 12th, 2003, 10:59 PM       
Surely France could have been considered 'liberal' before Napoleon and Bonapartism came around. :/

And Russia before Stalinism had just as many liberal leanings as it did revolutionary ones.
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 12:29 AM       
Maybe it takes a totalitarian leader to maintain an extremely liberal system (ex. Russian/Chinese communism), and this is why no socialist groups or nations have existed for long without very strict leaders. With social/economic classes supposedly abolished and all citizens nominally equal and unable to gain superiority over their peers (which everyone seeks - keeping up with the Joneses, etc.), I think unrest would be too high to quell without such leadership.

Opinions?
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 02:06 AM       
Sweden has been farily socialist and quite democratic for quite a while now. I think rather than extreme liberalism requiring a totalitarian leader, any extreme ideology requires a totalitarian leader, since the public will not accept any extreme ideas for long unless totalitarian methods such as mass propaganda, violence etc are applied. Seems thats basically what happened in Nazi Germany, a place which was ruled by a government that couldn't really be defined as liberal, or conservative, it was really just a mixture of extreme ideas. As to the equality causing unrest, people could, and did, seek membership in the Communist Party in order to gain some superiority. But other than that, it is a good point.

I don't really understand what you were saying there Zhukov... Do you mean revolutionary pre-Napolean France was liberal? And which liberal leanings were you reffering to in pre-Stalinist Russia? Czarist or Leninist?
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Old Aug 13th, 2003, 06:14 AM       
Pern you actually raise a very good point, as does the esteemed Mr Zhukov, nonetheless, I feel honour bound to make good on my word and post. . .


In order to keep the waters clear, terms must first be stated. Modern Liberalism is a child of the Enlightenment period and birthed both the ideals which inspired American and French Revolutions. To be simplistically concise, its tenants are twofold: Equality before the law as well as the protection of person and property rights against arbitrary abuse of the government. It's focus is on the rights of individuals, freedom of speech, religious expression et cetera. I use Edmund Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France" as the study for Liberalistic ideaology.

Totalitarianism, however, is more difficult to pin down in exact terms. See, the problem with political science is the lack of applicable paradigm. Due to this massive hindrance, it is not a true science at all, but that is an argument for another time. The definition of Totalitarianism I find agreeable has been better stated elsewhere, so I will post the link and cite the two qualities which I think best encompass it:

http://www.cf.ac.uk/hisar/people/kp/kpteach/total.htm :

1. Totalitarianism is characterized by a mass single-party, which establishes dictatorial control over the institutions of the state. It penetrates all aspects of life, and is able to absorb and deprive of autonomy all competing power centres (such as trade unions or religious groups). [E.g., the Communist party in the Soviet Union.]

6. Totalitarianism is characterised by a romantic and expansionist nationalism.

=-=-

Terms stated, I will choose the control group, and fortunately for all involved it is the country with which I am best aquainted; The good ol' US of A. I am going to make many generalities for the sake of bervity, but if any are contested, I will cheerfully defend them.

The American Republic was founded as a liberal republic, holding with the ideals of expounded by Burke and Locke. The Founding Fathers of that nation realized that individual rights and property rights were inseperable from one another. Private propery is defined as both the means of production as well as private possessions, adhering Liberalism tightly to Capitalism. Ideally in a democratic society “the government” functions for the people not out of self interest, yet the world they lived in, and we currently exist in, is anything but ideal. Nor is it truly democratic, therefore they endeavoured to create a government crippled by gridlock which would only handle the matters which individuals were ill-equipped to, as it illustrated in the Federalist Papers. Now, a successful capitalistic country will inherit elitist and aristocratic franchise. Power is strongest where it is consolodated, even in an economic setting, therefore Liberalism maintains elite power that enables that power to use government to behold private interest thus ensuring the survival of individual and property rights. I realize that is a difficult concept to wrap one's mind around, so if you, dear reader, do not completely understand take heart.

Now Socialism tendency is to expand democracy while Liberalism's focuses on blunting the tendency for democratic expansion by compromising with elitism. Liberalism's compromise leaves in place the recipe for totalitarianism while Socialism -in practice- embraces it willingly. I suppose you had thought I had something rather radical or new to offer up, but I don't. My ending might come as a little anticlimactic, and I apologise. My little theory, which I'm sure has already been stated by someone wiser than I, is fairly simply.

All political philosophies are in a constant state of flux, a never ending merry-go-round of contrasting reactionary, disillusioned ideologies. Liberalism, by its acceptance of elitism is a stepping stone of tyranny and totalitarianism. Our Forefathers knew this, and sought to stop the cycle before it could begin by having revolutions in government every four years. Tearing up the seeds of tyranny before they could sprout, but the complacency of the last forty years has made fertile soil, and the roots of Totalitarianism are sprouting even now.

Is there a a mass single-party, which establishes dictatorial control over the institutions of the state? No, not quite yet, but the potential for such is there. Is the government able to absorb and deprive the autonomy of all competing power centres? Assuredly. In America today we see the beginning of 'empire building,' which is a misnomer. What is in actuality taking place is not the growing of American power, but Liberal influence. Remember the sixth part of Totalitarianism's definition? Characterised by a romantic and expansionist nationalism?

Bing.

Once I wanted to enter into politics, but I take a perverse pleasure in watching freedom in its dying throws. I say reap the whirlwind, and I say it with a smile. It may not happen in my lifetime, but within a hundred years, America will make the Red Menace look like a training exercise, and irony of ironies, the people themselves have demaned it. They allowed it with their political apathy. They wished for it with their civic indifference. They begged for it with their nationalistic nihilism.

I apologise for any typoes, but I am almost as tired as I am bitter. I hope it was clear enough for everyone to understand. I'll respond to criticism as much as I am able.

edit: This applies to Miss Jeanette's prior statement tenatively, but no less aptly. Liberalism's emphasis on personal rights gives way to Totalitarianism's differential (sp?) preference of some rights over others. One's right to peace of mind versus the right of another individual to free speech. On a grand scale, that leads to the elevation of governmental influence and propaganda at the expense of the people's right to accountability from authority.
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 10:26 PM       
Hmm, you have rather good theories sir. I'll elaborate further once I've had a chance to compose myself.
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 10:58 PM       
For the most part, you were on the right track with capitalism causing the formation of an elite, but I disagree with you on a few points there. For one part, the elite that is created by capitalism is concerned with business. To that end, they may influence the government (as they already do) to their economic advantage. This would have an undermining effect on democracy, but rather than resulting in a totalitarian regime, it would more likely lead to something of a plutocracy-democracy hybrid.

Civic indifference, and the increasing trend towards "bread and circuises" from increasingly powerful corporations will reduce mass political involvement even further, until the United States becomes democratic in name only, and ruled largely by an oligarchy of politically active elitists, and powerful wealthy corporations.

This is, of course a worst case scenario, and even if it did occur, it would be much closer to authoritarianism, or perhaps tyranny than actual totalitarianism, which would not rise in this situation, since the government would likely be accountable, if not to the people, but then to the other forces that hold the real power in the nation.
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 11:14 PM       
Its interesting that I got a thread like this started just by telling Italian Sterotype to shut his trap.
I guess that means that I'm an intellectual instead of just one of the ignorant peons now.
Maybe now Ror will let me in the ivory tower; if only to mop up.
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 11:19 PM       
I don't know how old you are, but you lack of experience is showing. I wish Kevin were here, he is better at explaning things such as this, but I'll give it a go. Try and think of society as a diamond, resplendent, with many facets. Politics, the economy and the community are linked inseperably.

This is how the cycle works. The economy begins as a free market with little or no regulation. As it abuses the trust which the community and government have put into it, it finds regulations arising. This is best illustrating by the Trust issues of the late nineteenth century. If you would read the history of the times, you will see that Roosevelt didn't have a right to interfere unless an emergency arose, or he was invited to as a representative of the government. When he disregarded protocol and chose to insert himself anyway, he not only set precident for future Presidents, but anyway. . . Such regulations infringe upon property rights, as it is defined above. The Economic Element fights back, contesting laws and regulations where they can, and subverting them where they cannot, thus freedom of production continues, as does continued infringement upon those freedoms. Largely, the community is used as a pawn between the two, to continue in the Trusts vein, the Economic Element maintained that the Community profitted from the lower prices and wider availibility of goods as well as the standardized level of excellence, the Government maintained that without competitive agents, during strikes and times of duress, the Community would suffer shortages. For instance the Coal shortages which left many American lives in the north endangered by the elements.

So far so good right? Both are battling for public good, so Community is the big winner, right? Well, not exactly, see when the Liberal government possess powers of production, it has begun the transformation into Totalitarianism. The Economic Element is secular in a captialistic or liberal system, it is purely private, but when it becomes constricted and controlled by the government, it ceases to be secular and becomes federal.

I think I've filled in enough dots for even you to understand this simple concept.
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 11:21 PM       
You completely missed the point I was trying to get across in my last post, Mr. Pedantic.
I wasn't talking about politics up there. I was talking about how you condescend to me. Would it kill you not to be so patronizing?
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 11:45 PM       
I was talking to goat. I believe I was typing when you posted your reply

Hehe, and yes, for what its worth, you may have no only the keys to the tower, but the city its built in. . .But there is a faint musty odor in there :/
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 11:51 PM       
Fuck it. I'm going to set it on fire.
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Old Aug 14th, 2003, 11:53 PM       
May as well, its been abandoned for years
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Old Aug 16th, 2003, 02:23 AM       
It might just be me, but I think some more words need defining.

I always thought of 'Liberal' as not being weighed down with tradition while leaning towards reform. Is this correct?

If so, I would never consider Maoism in China or Stalinism in Russia to be Liberal. Also, I don't think 'keeping up with the Joneses' would pose any civil unrest.

I also think that none of the scandies are socialist enough to be classed as such.

My point on liberalism before Napoleon should have ended with a question mark. I am still not on track with my understanding of the French revolution and the rise of Napoleon, but my ignorant mind somehow thought that liberalism came from France at around that time. Sorry.

The 'socialism' that was Pre-Stalinist Russia was pro-reform. Lenin used land reforms to appeal to the peasants and co. (Peace, Bread, Land - these are the things the people wanted, this is what they were given, nothing mentioned about the end to capitalism or taking over the means for production.) In the fleeting moments of there actually being 'All Power to the Soviets', a very small fraction of industry was nationalised, and the Bolsheviks, while not as 'liberal' as other 'workers parties' who were allied with the bourgeois (Mensheviks, SR's, SD's), they clearly had a reformist policy. This is where the Permanent Revolution comes in and it all gets a bit complicated.

By the way, Ror has done an amazing job of explaining himself.
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Old Aug 18th, 2003, 07:21 PM       
What about a Liberalism that's been corrupted beyond it's original intent? Any movement set to determine my morals and ethics does teeter on totalitarian goals. Add to this the recent support within the left to support totalitarian governments, and links to socialist style movements that did go off the deep end...and well...
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