Miracles

[Sethomas]

I've always felt that a truly great relationship between God and humanity would entail no miracles, for such reasons as how the Babel Fish disproves his existence. For faith to be true faith, God should have no palpable mark upon the world. The thing is, in becoming a devout Catholic I've encountered a great deal of phenomenon that speak to the contrary; God has left an indelible mark upon the world that is there to be observed by anyone paying attention. This is of special interest to my theory of Metaphysical Consequence because it rules out the initial picture it paints of an essentially deist world.

Probably my favourite miracle is that of Lanciano, which I have seen personally. It has undergone rigorous scientific scrutiny, against which I have never encountered any viable explanation for it. Furthermore, it gives plausibility to the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. Not only do the blood types match (both are AB), but I've heard somewhere that the DNA is a match. When I looked at it, it really did seem to change colors before my eyes. Read about it here: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucha.../lanciano.html .

Another favourite is that of St. Francis' rosebush, for which the only online documents I can find are travel promos. Basically, St. Francis of Assisi was overtaken by guilt for a mental temptation. He decided he had better punish himself, so he sprinted towards a particularly thorny rosebush and leaped onto it. When he landed on it, all the thorns disappeared. Not only is an offshoot of this bush still there (I've seen it), but recently botonists strived to classify it. Their conclusion was that it's an entirely new species of rose (not just a hybrid), to which it is the world's only specimen.

Another one I like is the Sun Miracle of Fatima, particularly because it was so widely documented at the time it happened. It was first reported by a Portugese state newspaper in 1917, which would naturally be antitheist in nature. Read about it here: http://www.fatima.org/miracle.html

Another one which is remarkably unheard of is the story behind the very well-known image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. A synopsis is here: http://www.cancunsteve.com/guadalupe.htm . But what that doesn't tell you from what I've seen is that the cloak on which the image appeared was made of cactus fibers deteriorate within forty years on account of exposure to oxygen, yet has lasted for more than four centuries. Furthermore, it doesn't really point out the obvious fact that these roses were picked five whole months out of season for them to be blooming, and they were actually Castillian roses not native to Mexico.

Anyone else have favourite miracles?

[AChimp]

Once I microwaved a frozen burrito for 30 seconds longer than it said to on the instructions, and it didn't explode. I am sure that there must have been a divine force holding that tortilla wrap together, because verily, the beef and bean contents were hot and bubbling.

[Sethomas]

What a scathing rebuttle.

[AChimp]

It was a valid contribution!

[Zero Signal]

Originally Posted by AChimp

It was a valid contribution!

Your first one ever on this board.

[sspadowsky]

I thought I read somewhere that the Shroud of Turin was recently proven to be a fraud? I could be wrong.....

[Zero Signal]

It is a fraud.

[AChimp]

It has been proven a fraud many times. Then supporters come forward with new evidence, then it is debunked again, and it goes on and on.

[Sethomas]

There was a Carbon-14 test done on it in the 80s that said it was made around the turn of the 14th century, which led to some pretty rediculous conspiracy theories involving Jacques de Molai. As a follow-up, though, research concluded that heating up cloth hundreds of degrees causing free-floating C14 to bond to the fibers, which means that carbon dating is completely irrelevant unless we know precisely how long it was exposed to heat. Since nobody was around with a stopwatch when the shroud was burnt in the 18th century, there's no possible way to get an accurate date.

The reason why I choose to believe in the authenticity of the Shroud is the great unlikeliness of casting a forgery. It's simply impossible that the image could have been painted, because no school of painting could come remotely close to depicting its detail when the known historical record of the shroud began. Furthermore, it wasn't discovered until the late twentieth century how to create 3-d negative imagery on a flat medium, and even still we can't do by hand it to the precision seen in the shroud. The only possible explanation for it is that it was wrapped around a body immediately after the body was heated up several hundred degrees, and this obviously didn't happen because the image portrays hair intact and there are no signs of burning. (Hence my main disproof of the Jacques de Molai theory.)

To consider the possibility that maybe someone crucified a fresh body just to create the fraud in medieval France, the main argument against that is that the pollens in the cloth are indigenous to Judea, and the wounds in the shroud image go through the wrist, whereas medieval art always depicts the nails through the palms.

[The_voice_of_reason]

Any thing can be a miracle if you really want it to be.


Like all those people who see Mary in a tortilla.

[Sethomas]

If that tortilla turned into human cardiac tissue, we'd be in the same ballpark.

[The_Rorschach]

There was this great song that had a chorus "I believe in miracles". . .

Its not a great song because its the best song ever, but its great because whenever I hear it I can't help but laugh. Anyway, that is my favourite miracle.

[Zero Signal]

Considering what was done to Jesus before and during his crucifixion, he would NOT have looked like the image on the Shroud, such as: a crown of thorns (thorns that are 3-4" long; not the small crap you find in your backyard), his beard pulled out which would cause major swelling, being beaten...the list goes on.

Also, the body CAN support crucifixion through the hands if given some support for the feet; which were so conveniently nailed to the cross as well. I has been proven that the body can support it. It is not to say that it was not ever done through the wrists, but the idea of the hands being not viable is a fallacy.

[Zero Signal]

Rorschach, you sexy thing.

[The_Rorschach]

"FEEL TEH LUB!" -The Lady's Man

[ScruU2wice]

there are miracles for every religon, i mean just type "Miracles of..." any religon into google and itll pop out numerous sites. I think people just don't feel like debunking many of these

But i dont think your right about true faith only being without any sign of god. If we had no signs of god overtime we would forget or refuse to believe He exists...

[Sethomas]

Zero, I know that nails would work perfectly well through both areas. You missed my point, which was that somebody growing up seeing the nails portrayed through the hands wouldn't have gone and made a fake shroud showing them go through the wrists.

From all sources I've seen, even those that say the Shroud is a hoax, they demonstrate that the image details severe beating and the wounds of the thorns. If you were expecting to see the thorns themselves on the image, that's counter-intuitive because Joseph of Arimathea would have removed the crown out of respect for the body. A dead body wouldn't appear swelled due to beating because the fluids would dissipate back into the body after death.

[AChimp]

I thought the Romans traditionally crucified people upside-down. :/

[Sethomas]

Only on special occasions. Like St. Peter.

[O71394658]

I think they used some sort of new dating for the Shroud, and it turned out to be accurate. Something to do with analyzing the threads...

[The_voice_of_reason]

http://www.atheistsforhumanrights.org/shroud.htm


I remember watching The Discovery Channel and they proved that the red in the shroud was ink, not blood.

[george]

mmiracle: someteen billion years ago, some event cause the universe to begin.

throughout that time span, every tiny little piece of the universe had to be moved just right for you to come into existence.

weird.

even without a god, the fact that I exist is a freakin miracle, and i suck.

[CaptainBubba]

The thing about miracles: You assume that your god did it.

Just because it happened and just because it can't currently be explained doesn't give any indication of the cause of the miracle. It could be because of Zeus. Its could be because of God. It could be because of a magical plastic model of a table with little googly eyes glued on to it that has a 100 ft. tail and speaks Portugese.

[O71394658]

That's where faith comes into play.

The main point being, something greater than you made it happen.

[Zero Signal]

"It means 'to insist on what is true as a social obligation.' This is what Atheists For Human Rights will do in our struggle to be religion-free." ---from atheistsforhumanrights.org

So, these atheists are going to insist THEIR ideology over the religious ones. How does that make them better humans?

And what the fuck struggle are they baggling about? If they are atheists, are they not already religion-free? They become what they hate and try to shove that down the masses throats. Yay for them!