LET'S ARGUE ABOUT VIDEO GAMES

[DougClayton4231]

Yeah, the AI has definitely been improved and the text is large and readable.

It's funny that the ESRB is going out of its way to try and stop California's government from pushing the M rating to 18 years old (without minors being able to purchase it with a parent) from 17 (where they could). The ESRB only opposes it because their M rated game cash cows (teenage gamers with parental consent) makes up a huge part of their audience. I love how businessmen always claim that it's about art when it's always about money.

I personally support this initiative. For 17 year olds, this isn't a big deal, they just have to wait another year. Children shouldn't be playing our current mature games anyway because they are far too gratuitously violent and sex laden. But I'm sure that gamers will get into a nerdrage over the fact that this will lower the amount of toddlers calling them gay over CODMW2 or any other number of games. What are your thoughts on this?

[OxBlood]

I agree on that. Some of the kids I see these days or some of the players you meet online or something...many of them give off the impression that they lack a certain ammount of...what to call it...control maybe. They seem like they never learned how to play responsibly and keeping in touch with how things work in the real world.

Maybe I´m just a cranky old man by now but we played differently back in the day, because our parents knew what we were doing. Sure, I played Doom when I was 12 or something but that game didn´t linger in my mind for days after that. I played it and then I was done with it, cause it was just some game.

But nowadays...I´m not so sure if many parents watch what their kids do with their consoles and PCs and it´s out of the question that today´s more violent games don´t belong into the hands of kids. But then again, it´s easy for me to say since I´m no kid anymore and can play whatever I want

Fuck man, back when I was a kid we were playing outside in the trees or by the river and that was all we could ever ask for

[Fathom Zero]

Originally Posted by DougClayton4231

I personally support this initiative. For 17 year olds, this isn't a big deal, they just have to wait another year. Children shouldn't be playing our current mature games anyway because they are far too gratuitously violent and sex laden...What are your thoughts on this?

You're fucking deluded? I'm sorry, people with terrible opinions just make me angry, and we've had run-ins before, so I'll just preempt your self-righteousness and attack your premises. Firstly, you think just waiting another year until you're eighteen is perfectly acceptable when I would be more than willing to bet you didn't wait and had your parents buy them for you. Now, they can't get their hands on it at all until then, regardless of parents. Games are pornography to you, waiting to hurt children. I'd be willing to contend that not even pornography is that harmful, but that's another discussion entirely. When I was a kid, about nine or ten, Die Hard with a Vengeance was probably my favorite movie. I couldn't tell you why. I only knew that the director, John McTiernan, had done something cool. I've since seen the first one, and it became my favorite movie of all time, inspiring me to be a film major. I never liked things that catered to children. I was too fucking smart and whenever I did watch a kiddie movie, it felt like they were talking down to me. When I got older, about twelve or so, we got a PS2, along with Metal Gear Solid 2. The original was fantastic, but the second one blew my fucking mind. I knew what games could be. It also reinforced my film major plans. I honestly have nothing to combat you, since your argument is structurally unsound, ("Should" fallacy.) I can't disagree enough with you, as I would not be the person that I like and that my friends like today without having played, seen, and read everything I have.

Besides, I've seen dead bodies rolled out of hotel rooms under bloody sheets every night on the news, since I was born. And it'll still be that way. Famous starlet showing her snatch getting out of an Escalade. It's acceptable to be bombarded with otherwise reprehensible imagery, so long as it's not a game or movie.

Originally Posted by OxBlood

Maybe I´m just a cranky old man by now but we played differently back in the day, because our parents knew what we were doing. Sure, I played Doom when I was 12 or something but that game didn´t linger in my mind for days after that. I played it and then I was done with it, cause it was just some game.

I think you should pause and think about your past. Old(er) people seem to find new ways, every generation, to say that the new generation is worse than theirs. It's ageist. I didn't have any money growing up, so all my family had was an SNES until 2002 or so, when we got a PS2. I eat, slept, and breathed Super Mario World. I had one game, andI was thinking about it constantly, just as obsessive as if I woud've had Doom. (Obsession in my mind, being far worse than exposure to violent imagery.) When I wasn't playing it, I was talking about it to friends. Coincidentally, playing a shit-ton of games as a kid makes you a lot of friends. Just thought I'd put that out there.

It's just, people find it really easy to lose perspective, which is sad. I'll never lose connection with how hard it was, sometimes, getting a hold of great games, having people tell me I can't do something, can't watch something, simply because I wasn't of age proper. Suppression of information to youths is disgusting and something I find intolerable.

[OxBlood]

[quote=Fathom Zero;698663]
Besides, I've seen dead bodies rolled out of hotel rooms under bloody sheets every night on the news, since I was born. And it'll still be that way. Famous starlet showing her snatch getting out of an Escalade. It's acceptable to be bombarded with otherwise reprehensible imagery, so long as it's not a game or movie.
[quote]

None of that should be seen by a child in my opinion, there´s nothing to gain from that but it can destroy quite a bit in a child´s mind.

Originally Posted by Fathom Zero

I think you should pause and think about your past. Old(er) people seem to find new ways, every generation, to say that the new generation is worse than theirs. It's ageist (learned a new word, thanks for that ). I didn'thave any money growing up, so all my family had was an SNES until 2002 or so, when we got a PS2. I eat, slept, and breathed Super Mario World. I had one game, andI was thinking about it constantly, just as obsessive as if I woud've had Doom. (Obsession in my mind, being far worse than exposure to violent imagery.) When I wasn't playing it, I was talking about it to friends.

Well, I just describe how I percept the world. Being influenced by SO much information all the time is not a very good thing to begin with. Now imagine a lot of that information is violence-themed...can´t have any positive effect on half-developed minds. I don´t think that has anything to do with my generation or the younger generation, it feels like the wind is getting rougher in these past years if that makes any sense in english.

Originally Posted by Fathom Zero

Coincidentally, playing a shit-ton of games as a kid makes you a lot of friends. Just thought I'd put that out there.

I don´t think I really understand what you mean by that.
Playing a lot of games gives you a shitload of pop-culture-reference material, a lot of inside-jokes and some gamer-friends but if you mean something different, I don´t know what you mean I´m afraid

Originally Posted by Fathom Zero

It's just, people find it really easy to lose perspective, which is sad. I'll never lose connection with how hard it was, sometimes, getting a hold of great games, having people tell me I can't do something, can't watch something, simply because I wasn't of age proper. Suppression of information to youths is disgusting and something I find intolerable.

Depends. There are things that people of a certain age simply shouldn´t do or see, it´s really that simple. You don´t show splatter-movies to a 5 year old, you don´t give a 10 year old hardcore porn, you don´t let a kid drink alcohol, things like these. I´m not talking about a few months in age difference or something, I´m talking about years.

I agree that the whole debate about violence in games and how it influences the players is overexaggereting things but still, a kid shouldn´t play things like Gears or Condemned simply because it´s (in most cases) too early for things like that.


Hope that makes sense to you guys, my english is kinda leaving me every now and then

[Fathom Zero]

Don't worry about your English, man. It's excellent. And that second bit was just an aside, going along with the whole obsession theme. We make friends through our interests, then they transcend those interests, if they're good friends. If not, then... they're single-purpose friends. I mean, not someone who's like your best friend. Most of the friends I have, I've met through video games, one way or another.

And it appears we will disagree forever on how to raise a kid. Thankfully, you don't have to raise mine and I don't have to yours. That's what makes the world an amazing place with all sorts of debate and thought, n'est pas?

I don't believe it matters what a child is exposed to. I'm a pretty good example, I guess. I've seen a number of dead guys in my day. (I have a pretty good joke about my uncle - "My uncle's favorite candy bar was those Whatchamacallit bars, yeh. But he can't have them anymore." "Why not?" "Because he shot himself.")

I don't think it matters, to expose a spongey mind to something. Logically, that'd be the best time to teach them about something, since kids have a better grasp of consequences the younger they are. And don't anyone twist that around to make me seem okay with child abuse and shit like that. We can split hairs all day about what abuse is, too - I'm more than ready to argue semantics. I think what's more damaging to a kid is to say they can't do something. That certain things are... verboten. () I was never limited artificially by my parents. Even my father, whom is a complete asshole. I found what I was good at and what my limits were. I think it's child abuse to tell a kid that they can't be wrong, that there's no such thing as a mistake, and that everyone has to get a medal.

In the end, it's all parenting. Let people legislate rights away and pawn off responsibility? If you advance that, then you're a cunt. I hate you from the bottom of my heart and I hope nothing but the worst for you, because you're less than nothing.

Not that I'm aiming my vitriol at you, Ox. You seem to be a perceptive fellow. If you believe in such things, then I'm sorry.

[OxBlood]

Originally Posted by Fathom Zero

I think it's child abuse to tell a kid that they can't be wrong, that there's no such thing as a mistake, and that everyone has to get a medal.

In the end, it's all parenting. Let people legislate rights away and pawn off responsibility? If you advance that, then you're a cunt. I hate you from the bottom of my heart and I hope nothing but the worst for you, because you're less than nothing.

Oh we do seem to agree on that first paragraph. Of course I´d tell my kid it´s...verboten to play on a construction site for example but at the same time I know it will run around there anyway. Just because I don´t want my kid to do something officially it doesn´t mean that I´ll go yell at it because it just because it behaved like a kid. It´s just growing up, it makes mistakes, it HAS to make mistakes, has to test out certain limits, that´s only natural, otherwise it will most likely have problems later on. One reason why I don´t like overly protective parents and uber-shelterd kids. Even their immunesystems suffer because of such behavior.

And I never said anything about giving up responsibility, as a parent, YOU´RE the one responsible for your kid, not the state, not the community, the family is, we agree on that as well it seems. What I think is okay is to prevent kids getting things not suitable for their age on their own. If your parents are cool with you playing or watching something, it´s their responsibility again. Can be good parenting, can be bad parenting, it all depends on the parents, the kids and the situation.

But Store-Clerks selling...lets say Prototype...selling that to kids? Not cool in my opinion. Ot the Yakuza-Series. Too adult-themed for kids. Again, it´s the parent´s responsibility to do the right thing for their kid. There´s almost no greater parenting-crime than letting the TV or the internet do the education of your kid. I hate people that just "park" their kids in front of the thing and then wander off. Irresponsible, but I think we both agree on that?

[DougClayton4231]

For example of my argument Fathom, compare Mortal Kombat from our adolescence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPyIK_Vnbl4) with the remake of Mortal Kombat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz_vrbUCCvg).

Growing up playing Mature games and rated R movies is never a good thing. I ended up having to be my own censor because my mom was at work, taking care of the family. I played Doom, but I refused to play Quake when I was young, purely because Quake was much more realistic (and scary at the time).

Comparing violence and sex in media from the early 90's to now is as ridiculous as the 80's to 90's. Case in point, Texas Chainsaw Massacre (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWa9kTeLAGU) and Splatterhouse 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnv10...eature=related)

I actually had the misfortune of seeing a man murdered in the street at the age of 8 as well. Mature content needs to be for adults, not children.

Originally Posted by OxBlood

I agree that the whole debate about violence in games and how it influences the players is overexaggereting things but still, a kid shouldn´t play things like Gears or Condemned simply because it´s (in most cases) too early for things like that.


Hope that makes sense to you guys, my english is kinda leaving me every now and then

I agree wholeheartedly. All I want to see is that children will not be able to get their hands on inappropriate content without consent from their parents.

Originally Posted by Fathom Zero

In the end, it's all parenting. Let people legislate rights away and pawn off responsibility? If you advance that, then you're a cunt. I hate you from the bottom of my heart and I hope nothing but the worst for you, because you're less than nothing.

Not that I'm aiming my vitriol at you, Ox. You seem to be a perceptive fellow. If you believe in such things, then I'm sorry.

There is no issue of rights or free speech in the actual bill though. All it's trying to do is keep ultra-violent games from kids. They do the same thing with porn. Who's really opposed to that?

[Dr. Boogie]

Originally Posted by DougClayton4231

I played Doom, but I refused to play Quake when I was young, purely because Quake was much more realistic (and scary at the time).

You mean you thought Quake was more realistic when you were a kid and didn't know any better, right? Because that's a game where you travel to other dimensions and shoot monsters with an automatic nailgun.

There is no issue of rights or free speech in the actual bill though. All it's trying to do is keep ultra-violent games from kids. They do the same thing with porn. Who's really opposed to that?

Well, people who don't consider video games and porno to be analogous, for one.


I'm against it because I recognize the bill for what it is: a cynical ploy by politicians who want to distract from the fact that the state has gone bankrupt under their watch. They just need a quick moral panic fix to scare people into reelecting them. Once the elections are over, this issue will disappear. Just you wait.

The other reason I'm against it is because it's completely unnecessary. It has never been easier for a parent to stop their kids from playing inappropriate games than it is right now: Every game has a label and a brief content description on the front and back cover. Each one of those labels contains a URL where you can go to learn more about what's in a certain title. Video and screenshots of any game can be Googled from your mobile phone. And even if all that fails, even if you steadfastly refuse to expend an ounce of effort trying to learn about the media your kids consume, you can use the parental controls on any modern console to block out M-rated games automatically. In short, if your kids can play games you don't want them playing at home, it's on you.

Finally, I don't want law enforcement spending even a moment of their time on this. The idea that you could be working at Best Buy one day, then find yourself fired because you accidentally sold a copy of GoW3 to little Johnny and his holy roller mother threw a fit... that's just pathetic.


But I know all of this is mostly moot because the bill will just be shot down as being unconstitutional, just as it was when they tried it in Illinois, and just as it was when they tried it here years ago.

[Fathom Zero]

I didn't even think of that, Boogie. I'm not up on California politics in general. Good call. It's like the bunch of health initiatives they're doing in New York, (taxing soft drinks (which fortunately got shot down), forbidding smoking in public parks or beaches), coz they need to fine more people and get some cash going.

Originally Posted by DougClayton4231

Growing up playing Mature games and rated R movies is never a good thing. I ended up having to be my own censor because my mom was at work, taking care of the family. I played Doom, but I refused to play Quake when I was young, purely because Quake was much more realistic (and scary at the time).

I wouldn't say that's so much censoring as not doing something coz it scares the shit out of you. I still won't watch the Dracula with Gary Oldman, because it frightened me so. I don't think it's pornographic or overtly violent, i.e. any more than is needed for a Dracula tale. It's just frightening and I didn't want to see it. If a game scares my kid, I'm not gonna make him play it against his will.

Originally Posted by DougClayton4231

There is no issue of rights or free speech in the actual bill though. All it's trying to do is keep ultra-violent games from kids. They do the same thing with porn. Who's really opposed to that?

But it's about controlling information, in a broad sense. I'm opposed to that. And yeah, games like Doom and even Grand Theft Auto are vastly different compared to pornography. Pornography is easier to get for free when you're a kid, so I don't hope to be able to control my kid's sexuality. Creepy. I hope for them to be well-rounded and realize their potential, as a human.

And we get into more problems when we, as voters, have to elect representatives who can dictate exactly what violence is, whether it is necessary to a narrative, acceptability, and so on.

There's a bigger picture, to, because this law could get on the books simply because of the bankrupt state, but stay on long into prosperity, should it ever return. Then, some douche politician or DA with an axe to grind will use it to hurt people.

Personally, if my kid's got the money, I'm gonna buy whatever video game they want.