Free Will and determinism and...

[Big Papa Goat]

Human nature wouldn't be different if it wasn't expressed in terms of art. People have a natural tendency to express themselves artistically, but that doesn't mean art is a fundamental way of describing human nature. It may be the best way for a human being to understand human nature, but human nature wasn't created by art, it was created under the principles of biology, (read: chemistry, read: physics) so there's no reason to think our nature can't be defined under those terms, though there may be a great deal of complexity and difficulty, given our complex biological and social nature. Thats another thing I guess, human nature is a result of culture to a pretty significant extent (when I say human nature here, I don't mean in terms of nature/nurture, but in terms of the precise definition of what a human is) and culture is effected by art, but in that sense, art and culture are really just farther up on the reductionism ladder, being based on nothing else but psycholgical-neurological-biological etc. tendencies. Don't tell me no nonsense about the inability for biology (etc) to explain culture neither, because if your going to tell me that, then you should tell me what does explain culture. It didn't fall out of nowhere.


And math is innate, natural and not simply human. Equations for geometrical relationships and all that other jazz describes would have the same validity and reality if humans never put them to paper. The sum of the angles in a triangle is 180 degrees, whether or not you call them degrees, or count them with a base 10 number system, or any of the other little things that humans do. And don't tell me that if we never drew triangles they wouldn't have existed, I don't know much about math, so I can't really think of a more elegant example.
To say science is one of the other things is probably a bit imprecise, since science is really just a way humans have for learning about the universe, it might be more accurate to say physics I guess, referring broadly to the fundamental system of relationships between material things, which whether understood or not, govern activity in the universe.