Reconciling morality with atheism

[Preechr]

if you were wandering through the forest and came across the ruins of an ancient city, would it be all that easy to consider that the rocks had somehow stacked themselves that way naturally? Without some sort of help?

All of the "variables" just happen to be set to the exact values that allow life as we know it, with all it's order we can sense, to exist... and if any of those knobs were turned just a hair... even the value of the weakest force in nature: gravity... everything would either implode or explode or by some other means cease to be... how could existence and nature possibly be through an evolutionary process? Without a design?

Think about it: all of the forces of nature have to be dialed in with exacting precision and forced to work together by strict laws in order for everything in the universe to exist without instant destruction of some sort happening. How could nature evolve into that? The process of trial and error, from Big Bang to Big Flush would involve immeasurable instants of time, and I have have to ask... who would you propose is learning from this process if not some sort of intelligent designer?

[kahljorn]

So somebody makes an argument that atheists can be moral and you attempt to argue that God exists?

All of the "variables" just happen to be set to the exact values that allow life as we know it, with all it's order we can sense, to exist... and if any of those knobs were turned just a hair... even the value of the weakest force in nature: gravity... everything would either implode or explode or by some other means cease to be...

SO? What does that matter? IF EVERYTHING SUDDENLY CHANGED EVERYTHING WOULD SUDDENLY CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how could existence and nature possibly be through an evolutionary process? Without a design?

Isn't the idea of the Platonic forms kind of that there is an intrinsic form to existence which can't be deviated from? and that this form is underlying all existence, just by the fact that it exists?

To use your physics example: Can you change any of the natural laws? Can you make "force" be not forceful? For example, if an extremely large and heavy boulder landed on your head, could it possibly have less force than the force of a feather which is extremely small and light dropping on your head? Or would it always have to be like that?
maybe there are just certain types of constants. But who says those constants are "God," or mean the same thing that God means to us?

i know im opening myself up for something about WHEN THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED IF THINGS WERE CREATED SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY....

all of the forces of nature have to be dialed in with exacting precision and forced to work together by strict laws in order for everything in the universe to exist without instant destruction of some sort happening.

That's not necessarily true. And an interesting question is if it's even possible for things to not work in some sort of precision.

who would you propose is learning from this process if not some sort of intelligent designer?

Why does someone have to be learning? What makes you think existing has any sort of point...?

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

So somebody makes an argument that atheists can be moral and you attempt to argue that God exists?

No... the original question was from where could an atheist build a foundation of morality if not from God? I attempted to answer that, but the discussion was diverted into this. I think it's pretty interesting. Do you object?

Originally Posted by kahljorn

SO? What does that matter? IF EVERYTHING SUDDENLY CHANGED EVERYTHING WOULD SUDDENLY CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here you go again. What I said was that if anything changed even slightly everything we know would not be able to exist at all.

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Isn't the idea of the Platonic forms kind of that there is an intrinsic form to existence which can't be deviated from? and that this form is underlying all existence, just by the fact that it exists?

I don't know.

Originally Posted by kahljorn

To use your physics example: Can you change any of the natural laws? Can you make "force" be not forceful? For example, if an extremely large and heavy boulder landed on your head, could it possibly have less force than the force of a feather which is extremely small and light dropping on your head? Or would it always have to be like that?
maybe there are just certain types of constants. But who says those constants are "God," or mean the same thing that God means to us?

i know im opening myself up for something about WHEN THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED IF THINGS WERE CREATED SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY....

I already opened that up... you just missed it.

If so, nothing would exist.

Originally Posted by kahljorn

That's not necessarily true. And an interesting question is if it's even possible for things to not work in some sort of precision.

Are you just arguing with yourself?

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Why does someone have to be learning? What makes you think existing has any sort of point...?

For Physics to have evolved, that means it was subject to a process of trial and error, where an imperfect form of Physics was Darwinially outpaced by a more superior form until eventually our current model reigned supreme over all other lesser forms of Physics. Unfortunately, for Physics to be imperfect, the universe itself ceases to exist. If the force of gravity is .01 n/m off, the Big Bang can't happen, buddy.

There is no other Physics available. From the get go this is what existed. What are the chances of that happening randomly on the first go around?

Existence was intended, and intention always has a point.

[kahljorn]

Do you object?

Clearly.

What I said was that if anything changed even slightly everything we know would not be able to exist at all.

First off, you don't know that that's true, and neither do I. What if something completely useless and unnecessary changed. Secondly, to say something like, "If some essential factor of the entire universe changed then the entire universe would change" doesn't really prove anything or even say anything other than things would be different if they were different.
is it even possible that those things could ever change?

If so, nothing would exist.

Nothing? Or something else?

Are you just arguing with yourself?

Are you arguing with yourself by projecting your faults onto me or something i dont get it i thought we should be asking you if you're arguing with yourself.

For Physics to have evolved

Physics evolved?

that means it was subject to a process of trial and error, where an imperfect form of Physics was Darwinially outpaced by a more superior form until eventually our current model reigned supreme over all other lesser forms of Physics.

Or, things could have just suddenly changed. Maybe what happened wasn't evolution, but growth.

There is no other Physics available. From the get go this is what existed. What are the chances of that happening randomly on the first go around?

The point of me bringing up forms was to bring up that it might not be random and there might only be certain types of ways things can work -- and those constants may not be the result of God. Or, if "God" is taken as a variable, maybe those constants are God.

Aren't there books about how evolution isn't "random" but tempered by the environment or something im not sure exactly!