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  #26  
RevengeVirus RevengeVirus is offline
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 03:13 PM       
Brunbb has never read a Punisher comic in his entire life, The Punisher doesn't kill bad guys because he's trying to save the innocent, he's killing them BECAUSE HE FUCKING HATES THEM.

"Why do you kill them?"

"uhh...?"

"Bad people, I mean."

"Because I hate them."

"Oh...I thought it might be because you wanted to make the world safe for good people"
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  #27  
Brunbb Brunbb is offline
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 03:43 PM       
Clearly, you have never read anything not written by Ennis.

Ennis stated before he took over the book that he didn't know much about the character, and it's shown(http://www.thepunishercomics.com/art...arth_ennis.htm).

Frank got his revenge long, long ago (one of his earliest appearances, also something Ennis ignored). He doesn't kill for that anymore. He kills so no one else has to suffer like he did. It's what the character is about. Read Essential Punisher 1. His biggest rule has always been to never hurt innocent people, and he kills to protect them. He doesn't have any powers. He doesn't have the money or technology of Batman or Iron Man. He kills because it's the only thing he can do in such a world.
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  #28  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 04:05 PM       
That interview has him saying that he understands the basics of the character: he's a homicidal vigilante with a military background. In all the different interpretations of the Punisher, that much appears to remain constant, so I'd saying knowing that much gives you a pretty good understanding of the character, as well as where to take him.

Which writer's interpretation of the Punisher do you believe to be most accurate?

Edit: Also, Ennis says right in the article that the Punisher already got his revenge on the people who killed his family. He says it in a bit of a wishy-washy fashion, but he still acknowledges it.
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  #29  
Brunbb Brunbb is offline
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 04:56 PM       
So you can write a perfect Spider-Man because you know he's from New York and shoots web? That is a very basic part of the character that says nothing about the way he should act or why he does what he does.

I really liked Carl Potts on War Journal.

Ennis doesn't really know if Frank killed the guys that did it. He says it probably happened. He would know for sure it happened if he did basic research.
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  #30  
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 05:52 PM       
He's operating on the assumption that the Punisher got those guys, so I don't see any problem with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunbb View Post
So you can write a perfect Spider-Man because you know he's from New York and shoots web? That is a very basic part of the character that says nothing about the way he should act or why he does what he does.
Throw in the bit about his uncle Ben and you've got that angle covered, especially now that his marriage has been retconned.
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  #31  
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 07:30 PM       
Man, I sure wish I could find the interview with Ennis where he says that Frank never killed the guys who killed his family. I remember he was writing a story about it. It might have been The Cell. I know my word probably isn't enough for you to believe me, but it did happen.

If you were to know that Peter was upset over the death of his uncle, lived in New York, and shot web, you would just have a web shooting Batman.

Have you ever read Circle of Blood? It was the original 5 issue mini-series about Frank. It's hands-down the best Punisher story of all time.
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  #32  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 08:23 PM       
I have not read that mini-series, no.

And you wouldn't have a web-swinging Batman with addition of uncle Ben because the story was about Peter shrugging off responsibility, not having his uncle killed when he was a kid.



And if wikipedia is to be believed, this is the backstory given to the Punisher for many a year: "When mobsters slew his family, Frank Castle vowed to spend the rest of his life avenging them. Trained as a marine and equipped with state-of-the-art weaponry, he now wages a one-man war against crime as the Punisher."
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  #33  
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Old Jul 1st, 2008, 11:08 PM       
Just to clarify, Castle did kill the guys responsible for his family's death in The Cell, as Brunbb mentioned. But Castle clearly states at the end of the story that he's not gonna stop his literal war on crime just cause those guys are dead. I also think it's worth noting that Ennis sorta tweaked Castle's origin a bit. Originally, his family was deliberatly murdered when they stumbled on a mob execution. In The Cell, they were caught in the crossfire during a mob hit, so they were pretty much in the wrong place at the wrong time and were never intentional targets.
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  #34  
Brunbb Brunbb is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 12:32 AM       
You didn't mention that. I was simply talking the shear basics of it and not taking that part in to it.

Okay, I had forgotten things. It's been a while. In Marvel Super Action #2, when Frank takes on the Costa's (the mob family that killed his family), at the end he finds

Spoilers!


So, yes, he is partially is still killing for his family. However, in latter issues (and I can't remember exactly which one), he also states that he is killing to help protect other people and make sure they don't have to go through what he does. That is why he gets so upset at other vigilantes. He doesn't think anyone else should do what he does.

I was partially wrong, yes, but that doesn't mean what I said was invalid. From what I can tell simply from these postings, is that you do not have a lot of experience with The Punisher, or at least with non-Ennis stuff. I'm not trying to say there is anything wrong with that, because I can kind of relate (I love the new Thor series but don't care for old Thor stuff), but Ennis doesn't really have a good grasp on the character and the old issues really build up a different character than what he portrays.
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  #35  
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Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 11:47 AM       
Hey, no one said your opinion was invalid Brunbb, I was just tossing that out there. You've got a pretty fair point, cause I will admit to not being a fan of pre-Ennis Punisher (remember when he killed himself and became like the fallen angel Punisher? Ugh). I think we could have this debate about just about any comic book character, since different writers have such different takes; I mean, for example, how many times has Magneto gone from megalomaniac to okay guy just worried about the mutant race and back again?
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  #36  
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Old Jul 2nd, 2008, 05:59 PM       
Wow! Thats a lot of debate about the Punisher. While I have never been big in reading punisher comics I do have to say he is one of the more kick ass Marvel heroes. Just the idea of him going around assassinating the x-men and other marvel heroes is pretty cool. But like Kybo Ren said it should probably have a "what if" in front of it.
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  #37  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Jul 3rd, 2008, 01:57 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunbb View Post
Ennis doesn't really have a good grasp on the character and the old issues really build up a different character than what he portrays.
Again, I must refer you to that very article you posted about Ennis: He said that Quesada wanted to throw out the extra crap that had been written about the Punisher (if Ennis was serious about there being times where the Punisher was an "agent of heaven... fighting demons and supernatural creatures", well then come on) and just get back to the basics of the character.

And I really don't see anything that would suggest that Ennis has missed any part of the Punisher (at this point, I'm no longer referring to this odd storyline where he kills the Marvel universe). The most basic definition of the Punisher's character is what I posted from wikipedia: that he became a vigilante who kills criminals to get back at the ones that killed his family. From there, as long as the Punisher is portrayed as an ex-military type who uses questionable methods in his war on crime, you've pretty much nailed the character. You can tweak his motivation a little bit and still have virtually the same Punisher.

It's not as if Ennis pulled some stunt where he retconned a big portion of the Punisher's history like with the Spiderman "One More Day" debacle. If he came in and wrote that the Punisher was against the use of firearms, then I would say that he hasn't grasped the character.
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  #38  
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Old Jul 3rd, 2008, 01:57 AM       
I read it. I didn't care for it at all.
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  #39  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Jul 3rd, 2008, 01:43 PM       
Let me say this, though: In regards to Ennis' "Born" series,

Spoilers!


That bit I would call Ennis missing the point of the Punisher. And there maybe more examples, but I'm just getting into Ennis' work on the Punisher now.
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  #40  
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Old Jul 3rd, 2008, 10:09 PM       
Okay, I've been wanting to post on here for a while and I've finally taken the time to register, hooray!

Now, I've been a Punisher fan for quite some time now and while I enjoyed his pre-Ennis life, I really think that Ennis' version of the character is the one to beat. The Punisher was travelling down a pretty crappy road before Ennis took over the reins. Remember the ectoplasmic gun-toting Heaven's hitman angle that was beyond shitty and almost universally despised? And that was after most of the Punisher titles were canned due to sagging sales. That was Marvel's attempt at revitalizing the character initially.

Then Ennis came along. Ennis focused the character, cut the fat off and started almost carte blanche with his "Marvel Knights" series. His run on that was pretty good, not great and I only say this in comparison to his MAX series. Finally the Punisher got the series he deserved, the treatment he needed after years of beating around the bush.

This is the best Punisher book ever. Well, it was. It makes me cringe now when I read the latest War Journal series or see him get flatten by little girls (albeit super-powered ones)in the 616. Frank just doesn't have a home there anymore in my opinion.
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  #41  
the Platinum Poppy the Platinum Poppy is offline
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Old Jul 24th, 2008, 01:28 PM       
Haven't read this book, but I immediately want to. :-) I did enjoy the storylines by Ennis where the Punisher fights the Russian, Daredevil, Wolverine and Spiderman, with some aid of Hulk...

When it comes to the whole Ennis discussion: Ennis has stressed in the comic several times that the Punisher is very much aware of the fact that he can't extinguish crime by killing people off... Frank said so explicitly in the human-trafficking story, that when he's killed these guys there'll just come others to take their place and human trafficking will continue just like before. There's also been stories where revenge starts to "spiral", so one revenge leads to another revenge etc. I think this goes to show that Ennis has a brain, because the idea that one could extinguish violence by murder is plain stupid.

I've only read a couple or so of pre-Ennis Punisher comics, and that was a long time ago.. But I think I recall that he had a more typical hero personality back then... But that's pretty hard to reconcile with the fact that he's a mass murderer of incredible proportions who goes around killing gallons of people all the time, so to that personality I say good riddance.

It's odd though that Ennis' Punisher was clearly part of the regular Marvel Universe to start with, but now it seems like he slid off into his own little pocket universe where no other supercreatures exist.
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