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GAsux GAsux is offline
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Old Feb 3rd, 2003, 11:22 PM        China, Russia, and France....
I've heard a lot of people who are oppossed to war in Iraq use the agrument that U.S. action in Iraq is unjust, and cite the apparent lack of support from the rest of the world as evidence. Just out of curiosity why do you guys think the Chinese, Russians, and French are against military intervention?

Just kind of interested in what you guys think.
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ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
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Old Feb 3rd, 2003, 11:26 PM       
the french are stubborn fucks and the russians and chinese are opposed to us on most things.


they just dont want to play nice
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 12:03 AM       
Politcally correct group think. Its bad as "Well, the President says it is good so it must be."

Like those countries are bastions of morals and ethics. I wonder who buys most of Iraq's oil.
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 12:09 AM       
I'd be willing to bet that French, Russian and Chinese companies have a lot of money invested in Iraq and don't want to see everything go the the U.S.

In fact, there are probably a lot of American companies that have millions of dollars invested there already, but why would they complain? :P
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roonTing roonTing is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 02:06 AM       
Russia has a massive oil deal going down with Iraq right now, China.. well they have slanty eyes. And France.. we should have left them in the hands of the Germans.
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poopyone poopyone is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 03:29 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by roonTing
China.. well they have slanty eyes.
I couldn't agree more.
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Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 10:38 AM       
I agree with everyone so far.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 09:19 PM       
The overly simplified argument that France doesn't want war with Iraq because of oil is just as naive as thinking the U.S. DOES want war with Iraq for oil. Neither are that simple.....
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Zero Signal Zero Signal is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 09:54 PM       
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Originally Posted by roonTing
And France.. we should have left them in the hands of the Germans.
I certainly agree with that.
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GAsux GAsux is offline
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Old Feb 4th, 2003, 11:36 PM        Word
Oh I completely agree with that part Kev. I think oversimplification by both sides of the issue is a problem as far as I am concerned.

The only point Im getting at is that I get frustrated by people trying to prove that war in Iraq is wrong because the U.S. in only motivated by self interest. Uh, Duh. Isn't that what a government is supposed to do? Represent the interests of its people? But further, I think it's sort of hypocritical to ignore the self interests of those who are protesting the loudest.

The French, Russians, and Chinese all have considerable economic and political interests in Iraq, and the region as a whole. It's not enough to simply cite their opposition as proof that the U.S. is wrong. I think in all fairness it's important to think about WHY they are against action in Iraq.
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Systemz Systemz is offline
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Old Feb 6th, 2003, 06:00 AM        Yo ho ho ho, It's A Pirate's Life For Me
I think the major conflict with all the suggestions above is that we're looking for the reasoning as to why France, Russia and China (herein called FRAC) would want to avoid a US-led conflict with Iraq. That's all well and good if these countries were objecting on moral or ethical grounds - hell, it even works if you look at things from a realist paradigm and try to dig out the reasoning behind the moves FRAC makes (certainly in the case of Russia, as they stand to benefit greatly in the long term with my man Saddam in power). The thing is that none of these countries really need to give two shits about the situation in IRAQ - China and Russia have bigger fish to fry in their own countires with the Uighurs and Chechens, respectively, and France participates in the UN embargo on Iraq.

The fact is these situations are endemic of the fact that these countries are looking outwards to look in - Russia is a third-world country, essentially, with a bitchslapped government at the bootheel of corruption, China's got problems with its leader Zhiang Zhemin, who is generally considered a pathetic dinosaur by the Chinese people, and Jaques Chirac in France narrowly won an election against a xenophobe who was calling for "relocation camps" for the arab nationals in France.

Each one of these countries benefits domestically from a distraction from outside - specifically, a good old underdog-type scrap with the good Ol' US-of-A. Gerhard Schroeder in Germany just got reelected as chancellor on an antiwar-with-Iraq platform - all these countries are using the (ahem) strongarm tactics of the USA to silence domestic issues with debate over what is a relatively insignificant issue - the US has no need for legitimacy or support in order to turn Iraq into a smoking crater - so these countries play the "good guy" long enough to garner support domestically, and then switch at the last moment, sweeping the populous along on its new "war footing", and hopefully carving up the spoils of war along the way.
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