I-Mockery has turned into a racist shithole.

[theapportioner]

It -is- a fiction, retard. It's a social construction based on trivial genetic differences. And it is not necessarily a timeless thing -- much of our modern racist legacy stems not from slavery or the reconstruction, but from the racially-charged labor clashes between the Irish and Italian immigrants towards the blacks in the turn of the 20th century. Only then did "white" come to include the Irish, and especially the Italians. This is to illustrate how these identities develop, and change.

(Interesting note: Surprisingly, a pan-Irish identity did not really exist until the mass waves of immigration to the United States -- in Ireland, they had self-identified more with their communities and local counties or whatever, but they banded together after coming to America. I suspect it may be the same way with the Italians and other ethnicities here, but I don't know enough to comment on these.).

it is people like you who are destroying the west.

No, just trying to destroy the ass-backwards beliefs that are thwarting human progress.

[Anonymous]

I swear to christ on this new board every other post has the word retard in it




ANYWAY

Only then did "white" come to include the Irish, and especially the Italians.

yeah, I grew up being told the irish were "the blacks turned inside out"

[theapportioner]

I'm sorry. But this board just has so many -special- people.

[ItalianStereotype]

Originally Posted by theapportioner

I'm sorry. But this board just has so many -special- people.

especially -people- who -talk- like you


i bet you also support a world state dont you...

[FS]

Originally Posted by theapportioner

Not to mention, you lumping people into broad, sweeping categories such as 'asian' or 'hispanic' is also racism, I would say.

See, there you go. Literally, racism is making distinction between people of different ethnic groups. There's a thing practically everyone does. But would you agree with me that the word has been given a severely negative charge over the past fifty years or so? That is why I believe it shouldn't be tossed around so loosely. It makes it easier for people to be tempted to use it for their own gain. Let's reserve the word for when people are actually preaching negativity towards other races, and not everytime someone just uses the word "race". Focusing on, and searching for racism in everyday life seems to me only to sustain difficulties between people of different races. Fight it when it needs to be fought and don't go out looking for it.

Originally Posted by theapportioner

This is fucking crap. No one is burning down your house, or mutilating your genitals. All you are asked to do is change a few words you use in everyday language, and be a little more sensitive towards people who are sensitive to racism for whatever reason. Stop complaining.

Unscrew your ass. Why is it perfectly OK for a black man to make jokes about specific qualities of white people, but a white man can only make jokes about black people as long as he's praising their enormous penises or ability to dance? Because white ancestors did atrocious things to black ancestors, white people now have to bite their tongue for a few hundred years?

Before you throw a fit and start screaming HATE CRIME, hear me out:

Lighten the fuck up. How are we ever going to beat racism if we're actually so scared of other races that we're afraid to talk to them, about them or incorporate them into our life at all? It's not just racism that's my issue here - people take political correctness of all kinds too far these days. The moment you start examining something for "undertones of hate" or try to ban something because it might offend a group of people (particularly if you don't bother questioning representatives of this group about it), you take political correctness too goddamn far. FUCK political correctness. Let's make a good joke about Mexicans and if there's any of them around that feel offended, there's always the good old well-meant "sorry."

[Zero Signal]

There is nothing wrong with racism so much as it is PREJUDICE based on race. Everyone is racist, but carrying out actions based on that against people is where the bad comes into play.

[Helm]

That's bull. Racism exists because of the encouragment of stereotyping. The fact that this encouragment exits ensures that it will be acted upon, and will not remain an academic position. I have no idea where you get your info, but the notion that rasism as a method of belief is A-okay as long as you do not act upon it has a new one for me. And what exactly do you do with your beliefs other than act upon them, Zero Signal? Your point of view leads nowhere.

[Vibecrewangel]

Though I think any self-identification based on a fiction such as race is silly, and not so good, VCA you're missing or downplaying the point. The difference is power, and it's as obvious as a cannonball to the face that caucasians dominate American society. Racism is -still- a serious problem, whether it is the classical 'i hate you nig' associated with the south or the less obvious, but still
pervasive arrogant, self-segregating white population of the north.

I think that type of self identification is a huge part of the problem. And racist in itself.
I see Asian Pride shirts all the time. I see Latino Pride sirts all the time. I still see Black Pride shirts fairly often as well. But do I see Caucasian Pride shirts? HELL NO. THe person would be beaten or sued for being a racist or insensitive.
This is what I mean by look in the mirror.

Merit is -hardly- the only qualification for college admissions. Not just diversity, but also athletic prowess and legacies get people in, in spite of merit. No one is suing UMich because their football players get preferential treatment (it says so on their admissions calculation sheet), or Harvard because they let in some dumb-as-rocks blueblood named Tadd Winthrop because his family has been going to the big H since 1636. It's bloody hypocrisy.

Ok how about this. A white and a black are applying for a scholarship. They are completely identical in their applications, sports, leadership, you name it. The only difference is race. Guess who has the better chance of getting the scholarship?

This is fucking crap. No one is burning down your house, or mutilating your genitals. All you are asked to do is change a few words you use in everyday language, and be a little more sensitive towards people who are sensitive to racism for whatever reason. Stop complaining.

You know what...fuck that....stop being so damn sensitive. Try growing up. Most people don't mean anything remotly racist by using the words black or hispanic or asian to describe someone. It is the same as saying blond with blue eyes or red headed. It is the ones who take it as a racist remark who are actually racist themselves. And it doesn't matter what a person changes in their vocabulary some people are offended by the term black, other by african american. Or how about latino or hispanic or mexican? Which one of those is right?

And as for burning down houses or mutilating genitals.......
Trying being white and living in a predominantly hispanic or black neighborhood.
Again, look in the mirror.

Not to mention, you lumping people into broad, sweeping categories such as 'asian' or 'hispanic' is also racism, I would say.

And lumping all people with pale skin into WHITE isn't?
Hey look, there's that mirror again........

[Vibecrewangel]

[/quote]Focusing on, and searching for racism in everyday life seems to me only to sustain difficulties between people of different races. Fight it when it needs to be fought and don't go out looking for it. [/quote]

My point exactly.

[theapportioner]

Let's reserve the word for when people are actually preaching negativity towards other races, and not everytime someone just uses the word "race".

The reality in the United States is that the legacy of racism is perpetuated through institutions and through continued segregation, especially against african-americans. Fighting against overt racism is scratching the surface. More later.

Focusing on, and searching for racism in everyday life seems to me only to sustain difficulties between people of different races.

Fine rhetoric, but prove it. The difficulties are sustained because of institutionalized racism (banks, real estate, etc.), lingering cultural perceptions exacerbated by the legacy of segregation years ago, etc. If you -don't- focus on it, they will continue.

FUCK political correctness. Let's make a good joke about Mexicans and if there's any of them around that feel offended, there's always the good old well-meant "sorry."

It's one thing to do it in a relatively isolated and self-selecting forum where the culture of "mocking" is known and established (that is, people come here to mock), and where the participants are aware of the purpose and intentions of the jokes made. It's another matter to do it in a more public arena where people sensitive to such remarks may be around.

I find it shameful that people here are frothing at the mouth over this. It's so easy to change a few words you say. Why do people find it so inconvenient?

A white and a black are applying for a scholarship. They are completely identical in their applications, sports, leadership, you name it. The only difference is race.

You missed the point.

And lumping all people with pale skin into WHITE isn't?

Lumping people into categories such as 'asian' is insulting to those who would rather be associated with their ethnicity. It completely steamrolls over the sweeping cultural differences amongst asians -- i.e. Vietnamese versus Japanese. It's a peculiarly American tendency to look at everyone who is not European in origin as "the others".

For instance, the stereotype that all asians are smart violin players who are proficient in math, but have poor social skills. It's bunk, because many Vietnamese, Cambodians, etc. are struggling in schools.

More later.[/quote]

[Vibecrewangel]

A white and a black are applying for a scholarship. They are completely identical in their applications, sports, leadership, you name it. The only difference is race.

You missed the point.

Actually, I think you missed the point. Or are deliberatley ignoring it.



[quote]And lumping all people with pale skin into WHITE isn't? [/qoute]

Lumping people into categories such as 'asian' is insulting to those who would rather be associated with their ethnicity. It completely steamrolls over the sweeping cultural differences amongst asians -- i.e. Vietnamese versus Japanese. It's a peculiarly American tendency to look at everyone who is not European in origin as "the others".

For instance, the stereotype that all asians are smart violin players who are proficient in math, but have poor social skills. It's bunk, because many Vietnamese, Cambodians, etc. are struggling in schools.

On the issue of lumping....you seem to think it is perfectly fine to call all French, Canadian, English, German, Spanish, Russian etc white. While using the term Asian is insulting. What if white people want to be proud of their ethnicity. It is just as diverse as asian ethnicity.

Hypocricy at it's finest.

[ItalianStereotype]

actually vibe, i couldnt be happier that you are back, especially now.

[Vibecrewangel]

[theapportioner]

Actually, I think you missed the point. Or are deliberatley ignoring it.

Don't you agree it's unfair that an athlete with lower grades, or someone whose family has a legacy, gets into the college of your dreams, and you don't? Wouldn't you be peeved? Which is worse -- that a priviledged scion with a 2.4 GPA in high school gets in, or a hardworking black student from inner city schools gets in? Yet, noone is complaining about the athletes or the legacies. Why race?

*This* is the point. If you truly espouse admissions by merit, then it behooves you to challenge the preferred admissions towards athletes and legacy matriculants. Attacking affirmative action in the way that you are attacking it (not saying that a.a. should be invulnerable to criticism) is racist, whether you realize it or not.

And, many *private* scholarships are specifically geared towards funding minority education. This is irrelevant to the affirmative action debate, since many scholarships are funded external to the university. Not to mention, there are scholarships for -everything-.

you seem to think it is perfectly fine to call all French, Canadian, English, German, Spanish, Russian etc white.

Americans (and I am speaking of Americans specifically) of Western European descent are so ethnically mixed that it's impossible to separate the large number of them into distinct minorities. Yet a Cambodian is lumped with a Japanese or a Tibetan or an Indian -- Asia (especially the Middle East), to the minds of most Americans, is a homogeneous cultural 'blob'. It's intentional cultural insensitivity and ignorance.

What if white people want to be proud of their ethnicity.

Yes, you've had it harsh, huh???? What-with racial profiling, Jim Crow laws, slavery, incarceration. The tough life.

[Vibecrewangel]

Don't you agree it's unfair that an athlete with lower grades, or someone whose family has a legacy, gets into the college of your dreams, and you don't? Wouldn't you be peeved? Which is worse -- that a priviledged scion with a 2.4 GPA in high school gets in, or a hardworking black student from inner city schools gets in? Yet, noone is complaining about the athletes or the legacies. Why race?

Because this thread is about race. I think any prefferential treatment to people who don't deserve it is unfair. And as I said....COMPLETELY EQUAL IN ALL THINGS BUT RACE.

And, many *private* scholarships are specifically geared towards funding minority education. This is irrelevant to the affirmative action debate, since many scholarships are funded external to the university. Not to mention, there are scholarships for -everything-.

In California there are no minorities. Just because you are of a different race does not make you a minority.
If there were scholarships geared towards whites what do you think would happen?

Americans (and I am speaking of Americans specifically) of Western European descent are so ethnically mixed that it's impossible to separate the large number of them into distinct minorities. Yet a Cambodian is lumped with a Japanese or a Tibetan or an Indian -- Asia (especially the Middle East), to the minds of most Americans, is a homogeneous cultural 'blob'. It's intentional cultural insensitivity and ignorance.

Where do you get your information? Sitcoms? Look at this board. Most of the people here seems to be able to distinguishg between the different cultures and races just fine. (See the argument about Jordan......) You are busy trying to pigeonhole all whites.
Who is the racist here?

Yes, you've had it harsh, huh???? What-with racial profiling, Jim Crow laws, slavery, incarceration. The tough life.

1) Our generation has never owned slaves. Your generation has never been slaves. Get over it. Move on. Better yourselves without excuses. There are more opportunities around for everyone than ever before. Get off your ass, stop playing oh poor me and get on with life.

2) There are more laws in place CURRENTLY that protect those not white.

3) I am not completely white. I am 1/2 Native American. Couple that with being a bisexual female. You want to talk about minority?

Some of us are living in the here and now. Living our lives. Not blaming anyone for the sins of the past. No one today can be held acountable for what was done before they were born.

GET THE FUCK OVER IT.

[The_Rorschach]

Because this thread is about race. I think any prefferential treatment to people who don't deserve it is unfair. And as I said....COMPLETELY EQUAL IN ALL THINGS BUT RACE.

You can't have it both ways, either you support true equality, or you don't. There is no middle ground on an issue like this. Personally, I believe in the merit of the individual, and therefore true equality in everything. Including race.

In California there are no minorities. Just because you are of a different race does not make you a minority.
If there were scholarships geared towards whites what do you think would happen?

There are minorities in California, or else the DMV, Voter Registration and Board of Education would not see fit to ensure that all forms are provided in languages other than English. It is our national language, and no others would be needed except to meet the needs of MINORITIES. I don't use the term judgementally, save that they obviously are not the majority regardless of how numerous such individuals are.

Where do you get your information? Sitcoms? Look at this board. Most of the people here seems to be able to distinguishg between the different cultures and races just fine. (See the argument about Jordan......) You are busy trying to pigeonhole all whites.
Who is the racist here?

Actually, he's making a very valid point. Genetically speaking, Americans are mutts. We choose which cultural identity we wish for ourselves and embrace it, just as we choose which lies we are going to believe and live by them. On my mother's side I can trace my line three generations back to County Cork, but that doesn't mean anything, because Ireland has been occupied by British for hundred of years, and previous to them, it was a holding for the Viking for about eight hundred.

2) There are more laws in place CURRENTLY that protect those not white.

Name three.

3) I am not completely white. I am 1/2 Native American. Couple that with being a bisexual female. You want to talk about minority?

Bisexuality is a choice. Race and gender is not, I don't believe it can be considered on the same level. Secondly, I suppose this undermines your 'No Minorities Exist' theory above then doesn't it?

[theapportioner]

Because this thread is about race. I think any prefferential treatment to people who don't deserve it is unfair.

Then lead the fight against legacy acceptees. Here's the baton.

Most of the people here seems to be able to distinguishg between the different cultures and races just fine. (See the argument about Jordan......)

See the National Geographic questionaire, the results of which were recently published. Regardless of the education of the people in this philosophy forum (what, 30 regulars?), 200 million plus Americans don't know shit about the rest of the world.

Get off your ass, stop playing oh poor me and get on with life.

I'm doing quite fine with my life, thanks.

So you are 1/2 native american -- my apologies for assuming otherwise. But don't assume that I care personally about my own ethnic heritage, or "race", because I don't.

No one today can be held acountable for what was done before they were born.

In a society, everyone has the responsibility to extinguish society's sins, past or present. Events end, but the cultural memory and social stratification persist. Go to Cleveland, or Detroit, if you haven't already. And people are -still- discriminated against, even today -- psychological study after study reaffirms the existence of unconscious prejudices, even today. You cannot deny that others -are- hurt by racism, even if you are not. The words are painful for some -- if you want to look at it clinically, hate crimes have been shown to cause more emotional damage than non-hate crimes. All the more reason for vigilance.

[Vibecrewangel]

You can't have it both ways, either you support true equality, or you don't. There is no middle ground on an issue like this. Personally, I believe in the merit of the individual, and therefore true equality in everything. Including race.

I will repeat "I think any preferential treatment to people who don't deserve it is unfair."
You are saying the same exact thing I did.

There are minorities in California, or else the DMV, Voter Registration and Board of Education would not see fit to ensure that all forms are provided in languages other than English. It is our national language, and no others would be needed except to meet the needs of MINORITIES. I don't use the term judgementally, save that they obviously are not the majority regardless of how numerous such individuals are.

Sorry, I forgot, Race=minority.

Bisexuality is a choice. Race and gender is not, I don't believe it can be considered on the same level. Secondly, I suppose this undermines your 'No Minorities Exist' theory above then doesn't it?

1)The argument over sexual orientation is a whole other matter. As someone who has been equally attracted to both male and female since grade school, I can say it was never a choice. It just was.
2) It is called angry sarcasm. I was being accused of talking about how tough I as a white had it. I was pointing out that as a minority (based on what he/she was calling a minorty) I had it tougher than most other "minorities"
I still make no excuses, I have never used my race to get me anything. I despise people who do.
EARN IT!

Name three.

Education Code §§ 87100-87107 require the governing board of each community college district to establish an affirmative action plan (with goals and timetables) to hire and promote "persons who are underrepresented in the work force compared to their number in the population, including handicapped persons, women, and persons of racial and ethnic backgrounds" with respect to administrative, faculty, and other positions.


Government Code § 16850 requires the State Treasurer to meet a goal of awarding not less than 15% of the annual value of professional bond services contracts to minority-owned firms and not less than 5% to women-owned firms.

In selecting contractors to perform this work, Public Contract Code §§ 10115-10115.15 forbid the Department from limiting its selection criteria to the lowest bid. Instead, those laws require state agencies or departments to establish a goal that 15% of the value of the contract work will be provided to minority-owned businesses and 5% of the value to women owned-businesses. Contracts are then let to the lowest bidder who meets this goal or who, in the discretion of the agency, has made good faith efforts to meet the goal. Pub. Cont. Code § 10115.2(a); 2 Cal. Code of Regs. § 1896.63(b).

These requirements "have the practical effect of requiring" prime contractors to adopt bid preferences and set asides for women- and minority-owned businesses. these statutes "effectively encourage, if not compel, [prime contractors] to adopt discriminatory programs." Bras v. California Public Utilities Commission, 59 F.3d 869, 875 (9th Cir. 1995).


Protecting "minorities" is one thing, but showing preferntial tratement to them simply because of race (or gender or religion or...or...or..) is unfair.

[FS]

apportioner, my problem is that political correctness ISN'T as simple as changing or not using a few words. If it were, I wouldn't be having a problem with the extremities in which it can be applied. My problem is that some people start to question whether or not I'm a racist the moment I even so much as mention an ethnic group of people, especially if I attribute a potentially negative quality to them. I have to pretend every person looks the same to me while people of other ethnic groups will not (this is not meant as fingerpointing). In my country, for a long period of time, it was taboo to publish figures that stated clear as glass that certain groups of immigrants were largely involved in crime. What the fuck is that? Political correctness should not adjust the truth.

The mere fact that I do not want to discriminate should clear me. I can't look at a black man and not notice he's black, but I can treat him like every other person, no better and no worse. That should be enough.

Today, people will look into a movie or book to find "undertones of racism". Maybe I'm naive, but why would a writer or director try to hide racial prejudice in his work? To snicker malignantly when he sees people watch or read it? So political correctness sets the line between joke and reality. If someone is willing to apologize for offending a person, then he probably wasn't trying to offend them in the first place. Alright, that won't change that sometimes people get offended. But when did that start becoming a cause of national concern?

I agree that ethnic groups who have been done wrong in the past should be given aid now to be brought to an equal level with western whites. And yes, certain people have to remain vigilant to prevent employers and social institutes to treat everyone fairly. But that does not involve watching over me to ensure I don't "offend" anyone.

And uh, Ror, let's not bring the case of sexuality and choice into this as well. :P

[The_Rorschach]

I will repeat "I think any prefferential treatment to people who don't deserve it is unfair."
You are saying the same exact thing I did.


Actually, I'm not. I'm saying noone deserves it, and that it is unfair period. I make no excepts, which you seem to hint at.


Sorry, I forgot, Race=minority.

That was the assumption, this thread is about race after all. You said so yourself. Race does is not the only qualifying means for minority status, however, it is one of the easiest. Denying that such groups exist will not make their integration with American culture any easier or swifter.

1)The argument over sexual orientation is a whole other matter. As someone who has been equally attracted to both male and female since grade school, I can say it was never a choice. It just was.

Children in grade school also feel the inclination to lie, steal and deride one another. Controlling one's self, and one's urges, is part of growing up. Forgive me, VCA, I'm not attempting to assert that I see anything wrong or unnatural with homosexuality, however, I don't believe that those so inclined should see themselves as victums of their urges either.

2) It is called angry sarcasm. I was being accused of talking about how tough I as a white had it. I was pointing out that as a minority (based on what he/she was calling a minorty) I had it tougher than most other "minorities"
I still make no excuses, I have never used my race to get me anything. I despise people who do.
EARN IT!

Thats a rather silly statement, over all, Californians have it easier than most Americans. It's an extremely liberal and open minded state, for instance, Berkeley has few requirements in regards to General Education Requirements, save for a coarse in Multicultural Understanding. That says quite a bit.

Education Code §§ 87100-87107 - Passed in 1998

Government Code § 16850 - Also passed in 1998

Obviously our society has not reached the point of true tolerance yet or these laws would be older, if not ommitted completely.

[Vibecrewangel]

I like you.

You are saying things a bit better than I am.
I'm doing this in between processing Visas and running payroll for my postdocs.

All I am trying to say is that race, like any other classification should not be used as a basis for preferential treatment.

It should also not be used as a basis for any negative treatment.

Both sides of that line promote racisim in it's worst form.

[FS]

I'm not attempting to assert that I see anything wrong or unnatural with homosexuality, however, I don't believe that those so inclined should see themselves as victums of their urges either.

Are you a victim of heterosexuality? :/ How about you're not a victim nor making a conscious choice, but it's just what you are?

[Vibecrewangel]

Actually, I'm not. I'm saying noone deserves it, and that it is unfair period. I make no excepts, which you seem to hint at.

Where do I hint at it?

I don't believe that those so inclined should see themselves as victums of their urges either.

Does this mean being straight is just an urge as well?
I hate the victim complex. It is just an excuse. A crutch.

Obviously our society has not reached the point of true tolerance yet or these laws would be older, if not ommitted completely.

Many of these laws are put in/stay in place because some people are still crying over the past or imagined slights. See what FS said.
What is the term I heard earlier? Apologists?
I'm sick of it.

[Vibecrewangel]

Sorry, wasn't ignoring you

Then lead the fight against legacy acceptees. Here's the baton.

We dont have much if any of that at Stanford. (Though I may not know it) Your grades have to be up there. Even if Stanford is the butt of many jokes these days....
We still take only the top 4% academically and that includes our athletes.

See the National Geographic questionaire, the results of which were recently published. Regardless of the education of the people in this philosophy forum (what, 30 regulars?), 200 million plus Americans don't know shit about the rest of the world.

And many of those Americans are not white. We are a sad lot over all.

[The_Rorschach]

All I am trying to say is that race, like any other classification should not be used as a basis for preferential treatment.

It should also not be used as a basis for any negative treatment.

Which I think is what you both were arguing, and myself as well after my own fashion. I would also like to see a day when people regard one another as equals regardless of incorporated variables such as race, religion, economic standing or education - And though that day is far off in coming, we can only get there if we get rid ourselves of such crutches as racial favouritism.

FatSatan: Are you a victim of heterosexuality? How about you're not a victim nor making a conscious choice, but it's just what you are?

I am of Irish descent. I cannot change it through denial or restraint, however, I can control my heterosexuality. I can be abstinate, or homosexual, or prey on small animals too slow to escape me. If something can be avoided, and it is not, it is chosen. That is why I see it as I do.