gaza bombing (you knew I was going to bring this up!)

[Big McLargehuge]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

It's not about land, or religion. It's about tolerance.

no, it is about religion and the stupid things people do because of a few verses from an old fairy tale

[Abcdxxxx]

The original founding PLO members were not religiously based, and included both Christians and Muslims.

The majority of Israel today is secular, and the largest Zionist movements including the most recent, were not religious.

Take away the eligious arguments, and you still have an argument.

[VaporTrailx1]

It has to be about religion. Because the Palestinians are oppressed in Jordan even though they're the majority. But they don't care about the Jordanians shitting on them do they?

Maybe they're just pawns in someone elses strategy?

[MattJack]

Abcdx, are you sexually frustrated?

Me too buddy

[MattJack]

Abcd, I don't care about the conflict in the middle east one bit, but it was fun making you get butthurt.

[Tadao]

MattJack is a Scud missile.

[Abcdxxxx]

I was butthurt long before you came along dumb ass. Let me know when you're gonna bitch and moan for MY forty acres and a mule.

Ain't gonna happen, just like you're not likely to add anything to this conversation.

At least Ranxer is a mental retard, with a disability. What's your excuse?

[Evil Robot]

NO efforts towards peace on Israel's part have ever resulted in peace, or made anyone happy....

Shouldn't that tell you something about thier "efforts"?

[Abcdxxxx]

Yup, it tells me the world community will not be happy until Israelis lay down on their backs.

Anyway....

On Sunday's cabinet meeting, the ministers were informed that 220 of the 300 rockets fired on Israel's south in the last week – 73% - were launched from areas that have been seized by the army in the last 24 hours.

This fact, coupled with the shutting down of a great number of the tunnels used for smuggling weapons and the heavy damages inflicted on Hamas' arms storages, workshops and rocket production facilities, has contributed to the decrease in rocket fire on Israel.

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articl...650517,00.html

I'll add that 400 of the 500 killed were Hamas fighters.
That's about 40% of the reported 1000 Hamas soldiers, and represents a very low tally for civilian casualties.

Gazans should be so happy Israel is the enemy, with Hama, Black September and Anfil in mind. (Google it if you don't know what I'm referencing).

[Tadao]

This would be all over already if I had my bunny army.

[MattJack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djuAh5D26nw

[Tadao]

Come on people, it's about power. Don't kid yourselves.

[Big McLargehuge]

religion has always been a tool of those in power. the basis of the conflict is that two religions claim the same little shitty strip of sand as their cultural point of origin. it doesn't matter if the people controlling the armies believe or not, and they probably don't, if the people actually fighting the fight think they are fighting on the side of god.

[derrida]

Serious question for abcdxxxx: Why do you think the Israelis didn't do more to curtail Hamas throughout its history? Surely there were segments of the Israeli power structure who could have forseen that a bottom-up, grassroots religious movement who took great care to eliminate internal corruption would become a far more formidable opponent than the crumbling, hated and notoriously corrupt Fatah party?

On a larger scale, wouldn't you agree that true socialism is vastly preferable to the absolutely insane division of wealth and the islamofascist paradigm nurtured by the west ever since the third reich sent advisors to cairo?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by derrida

Serious question for abcdxxxx: Why do you think the Israelis didn't do more to curtail Hamas throughout its history?

Israel's always had a bunch of nutjobs in the government who were desperate to make peace in the most self defeating manner possible. So at the time it was illegal to even negotiate with the PLO, there were groups like Peace Now pushing to find Arab leadership amongst the Arabs who would act as peace partners, and still have some control.

Initially the shortsighted idea was that religion would be a good influence on the Palestinians, and that Israel could help bolster some opposition to the Marxist revolutionary splinter groups under Arafat & Co. The support was very short lived, and Hamas turned out to be a monster.... but it's all relative. Marwan Barghouti is a name Israel still dances around as a possible moderate they can support...and he's in an Israeli jail.

I don't realy have an answer for you, because I suppose your question is meant to suggest that Israel allowed Hamas to rise to power purposely so that the Palestinians would adopt the most extreme leadership possible. I'm sure that was one of the 1000 strategies tossed around and never commited to along the way. In between world outrage over targeted killings of Hamas spiritual leaders, etc. What more could they have done? How should they be handling Islamic Jihad for example? Or the more regional problem of Muslim Brotherhood for that matter?

Originally Posted by derrida

On a larger scale, wouldn't you agree that true socialism is vastly preferable to the absolutely insane division of wealth and the islamofascist paradigm nurtured by the west ever since the third reich sent advisors to cairo?

Actually that happened the other way around. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went to Germany, and advised on their Jewish problem.

Who was offering a true Socialism though?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge

religion has always been a tool of those in power. the basis of the conflict is that two religions claim the same little shitty strip of sand as their cultural point of origin. it doesn't matter if the people controlling the armies believe or not, and they probably don't, if the people actually fighting the fight think they are fighting on the side of god.

Someone told you that's the basis of the conflict, or you watched a CNN special....but that doesn't make it true. Israel was established in 1948, and existed for about 20 years without Jerusalem or it's holiest sites. Hebron is the second holiest site in the bible, and Israel will be unilaterally handing it over to Arab control, since it has been an Arab dominated town ever since they ran Jews out during the pogroms in 1929.

You may also be unaware that the religious parties in Israel have always been exempt from fighting, and until recently did not serve in the army.

[Tadao]

There is far more important things going on in the world than this ongoing bullshit. Like the eminent doom of every one younger than me.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Tadao

There is far more important things going on in the world than this ongoing bullshit. Like the eminent doom of every one younger than me.

Right, but The Left, Jimmy Carter, and the UN all claim this is the forbidden topic nobody talks about.

[derrida]

I'm not convinced. I still think this is either the single most tragic case of blowback in the entire region, or, more cynically, an attempt to divide and de-legitimize the Palestinian government in the eyes of the world.

If the Muslim Brotherhood is one of the largest regional threats to Israel, why would Israel actively, though mostly indirectly, support it's Palestinian front organization al-mujama, that would eventually become Hamas?

It seems to me that those in power on either side care not the least about the people actually dying: Israeli generals and politicians don't care any more about their own people than Hamas care about theirs, just so long as they're the ones winning.

[Abcdxxxx]

It was the peacenik Leftist Israelis who vaguely supported Hamas, just as they supported Arafat. The great blowback would be the outcome of Oslo, where Israel provided the PA with guns, and training only to have it turned back on them. Hamas was not built up by Israel, unless you consider the 70+ trucks of aid meant to go to Palestinians as somehow supporting Hamas. http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...651783,00.html

None of these so called Palestinian groups should have ever been legitimized in the first place.

The divisive climate within the Palestinian factions traces outside the conflict. It's not an Israeli fabrication or manipulation, even though Israel has thought they could use it to their advantage at times. Pan-Arabism has never worked for obvious reasons.

[derrida]

Begin and Shamir were Prime Minister during the formative years of Hamas, both members of right wing political parties.

[DevilWearsPrada]

To summarize:

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/476393

[Dimnos]

Im no expert on this subject. Im not even going to pretend to know a lot about the history of Palestine. However... didnt the area know as "Palestine" belong to Israel and in the mid 90s they sat down and agreed to basically hand control over to the PLO in hopes it would lead to peace? Only to get spat in the eye?

[ziggytrix]

Don't mind me, just dropping by to see if the ABC was still around to explain the IDF's right to defend itself against the UN and the Red Cross to the less enlightened readers of this forum.

Personally, I can understand their plight. Some dipshit kid is throwing rocks at your head while you are holding a rifle, that kid deserves to get his head blown off. It's evolution at work.

But I was hoping ABC could put it more intellectually.

[VaporTrailx1]

They're surrounded by countries that want to destroy them any little attack could be a precursor to their complete destruction. Can you really blame em for kicking ass and not giving a shit about the rules?

I'm surprised Belgium never snapped from constantly being overrun by the French and Germans between 1810 and 1945.