gaza bombing (you knew I was going to bring this up!)

[Zhukov]

I'm not saying that Hamas was created recently because of Israeli attacks, I was implying that they have political weight because of Israeli attacks.

Jews might have been a target for past hatred, and Israel might have just been an excuse for that hatred, and probably still is to an extent, but you said yourself that it's not about religion, and that Jews and Arabs are capable of getting along together.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

I'm not saying that Hamas was created recently because of Israeli attacks, I was implying that they have political weight because of Israeli attacks.

Israeli attacks have little to do with the Hamas rise of power. Gaza was Islamicized back during the early 80's. Look into the Islamic University actions in 1980.

The idea that a sovereign nation fighting guerilla armies who seek to overthrow only strengthens militant terrorists is just a spin. You were questioning why Israel even allowed Hamas to get to this point, which is a good example of Israel being damned if they do, or damned if they don't. Mind you, it was your theory that kept Arafat out of Israel targets.

See, the tendency to think Israel is masterminding, and pulling the puppet strings from both sides is a bit silly. In truth, they've really just made bad choices in the face of unparallaled scrutiny. They've always doublt dealt with enemies, and tried to be shrewd...as have the Arabs on the other end.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Jews might have been a target for past hatred, and Israel might have just been an excuse for that hatred, and probably still is to an extent, but you said yourself that it's not about religion, and that Jews and Arabs are capable of getting along together.

Well remember, Islam was politicized and went through a reformation, which is the real roots of a group like Hamas. The Pan-Arab/Pan-Islam program attempted to create a common enemy to bind them.

[derrida]

How exactly were the Left involved with the approval, under Menachem Begin, of Yassin's application to start the "humanitarian" organization Mujama?

You mention the Islamic University of Gaza, which was Islamicized only after an administrative coup, aided by Israeli authorities, who then tacitly permitted its use as a training grounds and armory for suicide bombers and anti-secular thugs. It's inaccurate to say that the radical muslim brotherhood enjoyed widespread support at this point in time.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by derrida

How exactly were the Left involved with the approval, under Menachem Begin, of Yassin's application to start the "humanitarian" organization Mujama?

Care to substantiate that statement? I think you're mistaking Jordan's role as Israel's, so if you're going to implicate Israel's role beyond humanitarian aid you're going to have to give some evidence. Hamas registered with Israel as an Islamic Association, and Israel supported it passively. That's all we know.

It was Israel's peaceniks who pushed for ties to Palestinian groups while Begin's government formally attempted a different approach, such as his rejected plan offering Gaza up back in the 70's.

Originally Posted by derrida

You mention the Islamic University of Gaza, which was Islamicized only after an administrative coup, aided by Israeli authorities

Where'd you get that idea?

It's unlikely you would have supported Israel closing a school down, especially a religious school, the way they did with Birzeit University. I'm also not going to validate the idea that not intervening is the equivalent of perpetrating or aiding the act. There was no indication any group would prove to be more hostile then Fatah, and it's militant wing didn't arrive until 5 years later. The UNRWA is the only foreign body which has support Hamas continously, not Israel.

See, Sadat punished the Palestinians by cutting them off from his Universities. Long before Islamic University was "Islamicized" (terminology which didn't even exist at the time), turned into a militant hotbed, Gaza has become a hotbed of religious extremist thugs enforcing a street vigilante version of Sharia law.