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  #26  
Alcibiades Alcibiades is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 07:47 AM       
First off, having watched the movie with someone who had never read the comic, I can confirm that according to her 'It was kind of hard to follow what was going on sometimes.' Which is a sentiment I've seen some question.

And now, my thoughts/takeaways

I liked most of the casting except for Silk Spectre and Ozymandius. Silk Spectre just wasn't written the way she was in the comics, take of it what you will. She worked alright in the context of the film I suppose. But Ozymandius was poor casting all around. He looked too young and not world weary enough. In the comics, almost everytime you're given a close up of Veidt he's wearing this immensely knowing, sad smile. His character was always the perfect encapsulation of hope and despair, and a lot of that was lost more by the actor than the writing.

Some of the changes I fealt worked fine. Having Doc Manhattan admit his awareness of the Tachyons and potential nuclear war earlier in the story worked alright. But some I wasn't so keen on, like having Dan warn Adrian instead of Rorschach. That served only to inflate Nite Owl II's importance which was kind of contrary to his personality. Dan is supposed to be kind of an impotent nobody in the beginning of the story. Plus, having Rorschach not meet up with Ozymandius denied Rorschach of some of his good insults, and having him ignore one of the original costumed adventurers in his warning run doesn't make sense in the context of his character. Cutting out even the slightest acknowledgement of Hollis Masons death cripples Dan's character and motivation, and wouldn't have taken that long to add to the movie. I considered it an odd cut because they seemed to be interested in inflating Dan's importance and it is exactly that sort of thing that would do it. I'd also like to note that, having watched it with someone who hadn't seen the movie on the way out she was asking 'I couldn't tell, where they supposed to have super powers? Because I didn't think they were but in some of the fight scenes they seemed to be flying around a bit.' Which I will concur with. I understand that it makes the film more visually interesting, but I always envisioned Rorschach as more a stealthy, shadowy kind of guy and not a flip out style ninja.

One of the cuts I was upset about personally, but didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, was Rorschach leaping out of the refrigarator. The story moved fine missing that scene with Moloch, but just having that whole buildup and have him freaking leap out of the fridge was awesome in the comics.

Of course, it must be said, Squid versus Manhattan. I completely understand the change to Doc Manhattan but I have a problem with it. The reason why it worked was because it allowed them to cut out a lot of the side story they didn't want to film, which is fine for an adaptation. The Squid only works once you realize all the stuff that's been building up to it (the off hand news stories about artists dissapearing, Ozy's work with Bubastis, etc.), and to keep things to a more principal cast shifting the weapon to something associated with them is fine. However, I don't exactly see the Russians as being alright with the U.S. after Manhattan blew up a bunch of major cities. You mean to tell me the Russians weren't thinking 'You guys created this monster, you held him over our heads for years, lording your superiority over us, and then you lose control of him and he starts destroying the planet?' The alien threat worked because it wasn't associated with any country, but the Manhattan threat still has a lot of ties to the U.S. I don't think the Russians are just about to up and forgive. Also, Veidts tracks would be a lot harder to cover, it's not as though his work on free energy was secret, they show him talking about it with heads of business and the press. So we're to assume that they day he finally finishes his free energy generator (which he's been hyping up) the world blows up and no one puts two and two together? At least with the Squid he went through the trouble of picking a plan so ridiculous that it would be very, VERY hard to just come up with it off the top of your head. The Manhattan plan isn't bad, but it lacks some of the insane brilliance of the Squid.

There's a lot of stuff I expected to miss, but some I was suprised. I don't mind truncating the story because I saw it coming, but little things that wouldn't have added to the run time kind of made me frown. For example, right after the Comedian accuses Doc of losing touch with humanity in 'Nam, as Doc stands by observing the dead woman while Comedian walks off, Docs leg is phased through an overturned table for no reason other than it seems to be in the way of him standing where he wants. I always saw that as a great little point of his 'He's so out of touch with people he's acting less and less like them.' I was also suprised to miss having Veidt performing gymnastics for charity while Dan and Sally awkwardly fumble on the couch. It was always a great scene that really fleshed out Ozy's character while simultaneously really belittling Dan's (which may have been why they cut it, with their obvious Dan inflation interests.)

With the art direction, I was a little upset to see things go too sleek. I just thought the costumes could've been a little more 'dirty/homemade' looking for a lot of the characters.

I liked the movie, but unfortunately, the comic is a celebration of the medium itself, and the film was just never going to be able to capture all of that. As adaptations go, it's probably about as good as you could get.

Oh, and for anyone who haven't seen it. Saturday Morning Watchmen
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  #27  
Captain PirateFace Captain PirateFace is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 02:56 PM       
Despite any and all bitching Rorschach's scenes hit the ball out of the park every damn time... everytime.
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  #28  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 05:52 PM       
One of the things I never cared for in both the book and the movie is Veidt's insistance that telling on him would ruin the peace; that somehow, a genius industrialist who manufactured a worldwide catastrophe is less of a threat than a one-shot alien/bomb. I mean, has Moore never seen a James Bond movie?

Moreover, surely the smartest man in the world understood that a single alien/superhero attack wouldn't lead to eternal peace. I'm not the smartest man in the world, and even I know that people aren't going to stay scared of that stuff forever, especially when it never happens again. Unless of course, he was planning to create a new squid/bomb threat every now and then to keep people scared. If that's the case, it just goes back to the whole Bond villain comparison again.
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  #29  
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 09:25 PM       
Here's my take without writing eight million words: I loved the comic and the movie. Eeek! Does not compute!
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BurntToShreds BurntToShreds is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 09:57 PM       
The Reason Dr. Manhattan's voice is so high pitched is because he was twenty-something when the accident happened. Also, contrasting action and music for the win.
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  #31  
Tetsu Deinonychus Tetsu Deinonychus is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 10:03 PM       
I saw the movie today. It was great.

It's not as good as the comic, but that's to be expected (and the comic had a better ending).

I think in the end, it was just a pretty good abridged version of the comic, and that's about the best we could hope for.

Though, one minor complaint is that, yes, Veidt acts like a Bond villain in this movie.
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  #32  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 10:50 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus View Post
Though, one minor complaint is that, yes, Veidt acts like a Bond villain in this movie.
He is a Bond villain. The only difference is that he does the explaining after the fact.
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  #33  
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 11:11 PM       
i always thought it was silly that they keep acting like rorschach's journal is gonna make ozymandias's whole plot collapse, book or movie- he's an escaped criminal and it's not like the new frontiersman is gonna get anyone but conspiracy nuts to believe them anyways
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  #34  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old Mar 11th, 2009, 11:24 PM       
First of all, I can't believe how many people were fooled by Boogie's review.

DogWelder: (Nice name). Thanks for posting that link. I can watch that shit over and over. That sequence, along with the music, summons up more emotion in me than anything else in the entire film.

HowardC: I don't know what version of the movie you saw, but the Comedian definitely had his scar, and his costume was pretty much exactly like it was in the comic. The only thing he didn't have was the gimp mask, which honestly would have seriously weakened that scene for not being able to see the actor's face. Also, Dan Dreiberg and Walter Kovacs looked pretty much exactly like they do in the comic, or at least as close as they possibly could have without being animated.

Graystreet: Yes, the My Chemical Romance song was shite, but it's also only in the end credits, so that doesn't really count as being "in" the movie. Fortunately for pretty much all the other songs, they went with the original versions rather than crappy remakes.

HeroliciousDeBlanc: I have to agree about Patrick Wilson's casting as Dreiberg. He's hardly the most interesting character, but he was the best cast, in my opinion. Rorscach was number two, then Comedian. I agree that Ozy was pretty crap, but then he's kind of a douche in the comic too so I guess I wasn't as offended by that as I would have been if they'd fucked up Rorschach.

Alcibiades: You bring up some very interesting points. And I also missed the leaping out of the refrigerator bit, but it's not a major loss. It occurred to me that perhaps they tried to do it but it just ended up looking silly or stupid in reality. It might have turned a "HOLY FUCK!" moment into a comical one.

Dr. Boogie: Ozymandias's plan was never going to work in the long term, but I think his hubristic arrogance prevented him from seeing that. Still, I think you sell him a little short. In both scenarios there's the implied threat of another horrible event occurring: in the case of the Doc Manhattan bombs, there's the idea that John is out there watching the world, and with the alien squid, the implied threat is impending invasion. "Sooner or later whatever those things are will come for us!" Of course, Ozy underestimates human nature and the short memories that we tend to have. I have no doubt his plan would have worked (minus Rorshach's journal) for several years, but sooner or later the threat would diminish and eventually you'd have more war on your hands. His "victory" would have been a short lived one in even the best of circumstances, but were his scheme to be uncovered he would quickly be taken down and either killed or brought to justice (the remaining heroes would have no choice but to go after him at that point).
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  #35  
Tetsu Deinonychus Tetsu Deinonychus is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 12:03 AM       
The only major costume change I noticed was making Nite-Owl look more like Batman. But, with a recent Batman movie fresh in peoples minds, it's a change that makes sense.

I would also like to say that I liked the ending better in the comics, but the movie wouldn't have had time to set the phony alien aspect up like the book did. I think the ending they did use works okay (and I agree with what Proto just said on whether Veidt's plan would work).

I think the Nixon still being president thing might confuse some film-goers (it was a little better explained in the comics), but that's no biggie. As for his nose, I'm not sure how else they could have made that guy look like Nixon (at least it wasn't a full Nixon mask).

Any time a book/comic is made into a movie it's bound to lose something. But, I think they did a great job with what they could squeeze into it (I'm looking forward to the extended edition).

Again my only complaint is that Veidt's Bond-villain-vibe telegraphs an ending that's a total shock in the Graphic Novel. Other than that, I think it's as good as we can reasonably expect.
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Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 03:46 AM       
Proto: But that's what I mean: this guy is made out to be a student of history, so he comes up with the idea to make a threat from without to bring people together, yet despite that, he doesn't pick up on the fact that the reason there are so many examples of this working are because it didn't work forever.

The hubris thing is the only reason I can think of for how he would miss something so obvious. Looking back, they kind of imply that in the movie with him saying that optimistic things like giving everyone enough energy means no more war. Even so, it feels like we're having to create a reason for it happening because Moore didn't think that far ahead.


This is all getting back to the ratting him out part that he warned the other heroes against doing. The guy's a super-rich genius who's already shown he has what it takes to create far-reaching, diabolical schemes. It seems to me that if his plans were revealed, there would've been an equally good chance that the world would've united against him. It would've been perfect for him: the world would be united, and he could continue to be an evil genius with a sanctimonius streak.
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Alcibiades Alcibiades is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 07:15 AM       
Dr. Boogie: Ozymandius has two reasons for why he does his plan from behind the scenes, his stated one (which I don't remember him referencing in the movie) and his implied one.

The stated reason is that he believes he'll be needed to help guide humanity to a lasting peace and prosperity. If he became the villain, even if he united the world against him he wouldn't be able to do the necessary reconstruction work afterwords. That's why he needs a false threat too. It needs to be something people are afraid of but can't really fight against, if he was the villain people really could send armies against him. And since if he died the threat would be over and everyone would start squabbling again, he'd have to battle back against the armies and then his plan for peace is shot. If he died, without his genius to help the world would immediately go back to war with one another.

But the second, and heavily implied reason is that he wants the world to view him as a great man and not a villain. That's why he projects an image of perfection to everyone. In one sense it's good for his cover, but he clearly is obsessed with going down in history as a famous man for the 'right' reasons. He wants to destroy the current world order and rebuild it, but he wants to be remembered for the rebuilding, not the destruction.
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  #38  
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 02:34 PM       
I hated this movie. Took too many liberties. When they were doing it in the owl ship and the flamethrower went off I honestly almost walked out. When Jon was kissing her goodbye at the end and slowly dissapearing I swore to god I would burn hollywood to the ground. This nit picky; but why did they make Jons penis so much larger in the movie? I feel that that is highly symbolic of everything that was wrong with this adaptation.
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  #39  
Graystreet Graystreet is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 05:03 PM       
Why would that scene upset you? That happened in the book. Is it sarcasm? Why did you measure his penis? Did it bark at you? I think you've created more questions then answers, and quite possibly, brought salvation to humanity by dumbfounding us with digital penis measuring.

That kid from Twilight that liked Alexander the Great would be proud. I think he tried like that something once, but I saw this one dude, like narrating from his diary or something and left the theater.
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  #40  
wobzire wobzire is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 05:30 PM       
I don't remember either the flamethrower going off or a romantic kiss at the end happening in the comic. I will have to double check now. I just felt those where not necessary and sort of needlessly thrown in for "laffs" and "awws". About the penis, it was gigantic (thanks IMAX) and blue it didn't really need to bark to get attention. Not my attention anyway. Could be that I have issues outside the scope of your help.

I have no idea what you are talking about with a Twilight kid or Roman history. Sounds interesting though.
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  #41  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 06:00 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcibiades View Post
The stated reason is that he believes he'll be needed to help guide humanity to a lasting peace and prosperity. If he became the villain, even if he united the world against him he wouldn't be able to do the necessary reconstruction work afterwords.
I don't think he ever mentioned being a part of the reconstruction. He just wanted to end war.

Quote:
That's why he needs a false threat too. It needs to be something people are afraid of but can't really fight against, if he was the villain people really could send armies against him. And since if he died the threat would be over and everyone would start squabbling again, he'd have to battle back against the armies and then his plan for peace is shot. If he died, without his genius to help the world would immediately go back to war with one another.
But the world would be united against him. They would work together to bring him down, and he could stretch the threat out for much longer than just a one-shot bomb/squid, thus keeping the world together longer. And if they did eventually get him (big "if"; the guy is the smartest man in the world), then the nations of the world would see how well they worked together and stay that way.

And you might be thinking, "that didn't work in any of the world wars, why would it work then?" It wouldn't, but he wouldn't pick up on that because of the hubris part of his character.

Quote:
But the second, and heavily implied reason is that he wants the world to view him as a great man and not a villain. That's why he projects an image of perfection to everyone. In one sense it's good for his cover, but he clearly is obsessed with going down in history as a famous man for the 'right' reasons. He wants to destroy the current world order and rebuild it, but he wants to be remembered for the rebuilding, not the destruction.
I guess. The bottom line seems to be that he wanted his own version of world peace at any cost. What a dick.
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Lordsalmon Lordsalmon is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 10:48 PM       
Dear Dr. Boogie, I just watched the movie and there was no mention of rorshach being a pastry chef and he didn't live with Dan. In fact none of the other super heroes knew his Identity, Maybe your review was supposed to be a joke, but I don't get it. Half of the shit you said were changes are just lies you made up, unless in fact you saw some other movie instead of watchmen. In saying this I still didn't enjoy the movie very much, but my roommate who has read the graphic novel enjoyed it a lot.
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  #43  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 11:34 PM       
Sir, I don't like what you're implying. I-Mockery prides itself on being a beacon of integrity among all the Hollywood phonies out there. What I saw was the director's cut version of the Watchmen film. There was a focus group after the screening, but I excused myself after it became apparent that it would be boring.

I was actually contacted by Mr. Snyder's representative by phone on friday morning. He assured me that while some changes would be made based on the focus group's feedback, the majority of the film would remain untouched for its nationalwide theatrical release.

And for your information, I did not make up half the changes I mentioned in my review.
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  #44  
Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 11:56 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobzire View Post
I don't remember either the flamethrower going off or a romantic kiss at the end happening in the comic. I will have to double check now. I just felt those where not necessary and sort of needlessly thrown in for "laffs" and "awws". About the penis, it was gigantic (thanks IMAX) and blue it didn't really need to bark to get attention. Not my attention anyway. Could be that I have issues outside the scope of your help.
The flamethrower bit happened, but not the romantic kiss. In the comic, he just sort of smiles at the fact that Nite Owl had sex with his old girlfriend right in the evil genius' lair.


Ugh, I wish I hadn't gone back to look. I had almost forgotten that the ending was my least favorite part of the entire comic. If they had kept the original ending as-is, you can bet that the number of people who walked out would've been double what it was from just old people and irresponsible parents.
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HeroliciousDeBlanc HeroliciousDeBlanc is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 11:58 PM       
Wobzire: yeah, they set off the flamethrower in the comic.

Tetsu Deinonychus:You said it perfectly when you said Ozymandias' presentation telegraphed his plans furhter on in the movie. maybe it's because I've read the comic, but every vibe I was getting from Ozymandias pointed in the direction of evil. Especially when he dodged the assasin's bullets by running through all the businessmen he was THREATENING verbally, and Oh look! they're all dead! isn't that terrible for Ozy?
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HeroliciousDeBlanc HeroliciousDeBlanc is offline
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Old Mar 12th, 2009, 11:59 PM       
Oh and I was disappointed Dan Dreiberg as the little spoon was cut out.
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Lordsalmon Lordsalmon is offline
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Old Mar 13th, 2009, 12:38 AM       
Dear Dr. Boogie.
I apologize for making insinuations. I have read many of your articles and always enjoyed them. I was just very confused as I went through your review and started to ponder. I know that I may have been exaggerating when I said half of the changes, but you have to understand my confusion in having just watched the film, and so much of what you said was not there. Also I don't remember there being much music from Beetlejuice, it was mostly older rock music and such. (all along the watchtower by Jimi Hendrix is the only one that stands out in my mind right now) Anyways kind sir, I am glad we cleared this up and I'm sorry if you felt I was implying that you are a liar. (Which at the time I probably was but I didn't know you had seen a directors cut.)
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Alcibiades Alcibiades is offline
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Old Mar 13th, 2009, 02:17 AM       
Dr. Boogie: I really wish I hadn't loaned my copy of the book to a friend after seeing the movie so I could check but... if memory serves he talks about helping guide the world towards peace right after the 'I DID IT!' panel. But basically, either way, I always viewed him as a big full of himself jerk who figured if he was the only one who could stop everyone fighting he was the only one who could make the world a better place after.
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Rufus the Perturbed Rufus the Perturbed is offline
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Old Mar 13th, 2009, 02:51 AM       
I think what we can take from all this is that there will never be a comic movie that is completely 100% accurate. That isn't always a bad thing. Personally, I liked the changes that were made to Spiderman 2. Spiderman 3, not so much. As for Watchmen, I never read the whole book, so I'm hoping I'll still enjoy the movie.

Oh, and to Dr. Boogie, I thought your review was quite funny. Rorshach as a pastry chef. Hilarious.
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Dr. Boogie Dr. Boogie is offline
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Old Mar 13th, 2009, 04:28 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcibiades View Post
Dr. Boogie: I really wish I hadn't loaned my copy of the book to a friend after seeing the movie so I could check but... if memory serves he talks about helping guide the world towards peace right after the 'I DID IT!' panel. But basically, either way, I always viewed him as a big full of himself jerk who figured if he was the only one who could stop everyone fighting he was the only one who could make the world a better place after.
I checked again, and he does mention in passing that he would work on establishing a utopia.

But yeah, at the end of the day, he was an a-hole who loved to hear himself talk. Thank god they toned that down some for the film.
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