Moscow Metro suicide bombings

[kahljorn]

i just think saying that their form of resistance doesn't have much place in the modern world is kind of interesting since their form of resistance exists in the modern world and seems to have quite a place in their modern world ...

israel was formed in like the 50s. its time for the palestinians to accept reality and stop demanding shit that will never happen like having a capital in someone else's present day country. its internationally recognized as a country. this isnt something i just made up.

So?
Anyway, their whole argument is that its really their country or some shit anyway so it kind of mitigates that claim but whatever i dont really want to argue about that.

[Ant10708]

i know i wish you and coolinator didn't gay up this thread.

They can argue it all they want that its their country, rightfully so or not, but it won't change a damn thing and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. hmm maybe this time blowing up a cafe will get the israelies to back off us.

[kahljorn]

i know theres so much to love and admire about the middle east. i mean who doesn't love the oppression of women in the 21st century?

all the middle eastern foriegners(three men from pakistan) i work with all agree that their home countries are pretty violent and intolerant and not very pratical compared to the life and thinking in america. and most say that the majority of the people back in their home country espeically the uneducated are very sympathic to al queda cause and are very brainwashed to hate jews, europeans and americans. one guy doesnt even want to go back to pakistan to visit his relatives because suicide bombings are becoming so common place there. we can keep lying to ourselves and say they don't have a problem in their culture but they do. its just humorous because the people who moved from pakistan that i work with have no problem labeling the bombers in pakistan or iraq as terrorists or the recent subway bombers as terrorists but for some reason whiney americans do. they are unhappy with our foriegn policy and with civilian casulaties but they are smart enough to recognize we arent the evil country we are made out to be and that we actually offer people who come to our country including muslims a greater oppurtunity at a good life compared to pakistan or most of the neighboring countries can. they also like that they can criticize our govt without fear of retribution. but we are evil i tell them. go back to pakistan. thats where freedom thrives and oppurtunity awaits!

This has something to do with the definition of terrorism, right?

[Ant10708]

we already concluded that terrorism has no concrete definition. stop arguing. you said you didn't want to. im all hopped up on red bull and cant sleep so excuse my mushing together of topics and diverting from the main disscussion. How to properly define terrorism and does it even exist? yay fun....

before you fools started talking about definitions we were discussing if terrorists as we know them are legitimate fighters/soldiers for their movements. interesting discussion before you and coolinator arrived

[agrajtech11]

That was very hazardous problem.

[Zhukov]

The internet is awful for discussions between three or four people because I don't want to spend an hour quoting and typing every point made since I last posted

As for the point about horror movies and their ilk, I wouldn't count them as terrorism, obviously. If you want me to throw 'violence against innocent people' as another requirement, then sure, but my definition isn't supposed to be rigid in the sense that if you aren't points A through B then you aren't a terrorist. I was more leaning towards a view of being subjective about these acts/groups, and maybe base whether they are terrorists less on ticking the boxes required of 'terrorism', and maybe focusing on the emotions (no laughing at the back please) not only behind the attacks/groups, but the effects that they cause.

Obviously this isn't something that is likely to either become any nations mantra, or actually change Al'Qaedas classification or anything, it's just how I see things.

Ant: Kahl always brings something to a discussion. Oh, and you know that there are stances other than 'with us or against us', right? People can talk shit about Israel and it's many human rights abuses without also praising the sewerage systems of the West Bank.

Coolinator: seriously, you are not wowing anyone or causing any of us to second guess everything we believe in. It's like it's September 20th 2001 with you, and you think we need to be told that *GASP* we live in a new world, things are going to be different, and while we're at it don't believe everything the government tells you about so called terrorism. Hey, have you heard that America went into Iraq on false pretenses about WMDs? Wait a second I have a photo around here of Saddam shaking hands with Rumsfeld... Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis, I know right? But, here's the thing, America is pretty much married to Saudi Arabia because of, get this, oil. Fucking blood for oil. Do you guys know they call them happy meals to appeal to children? Seriously, they are targeting children with advertising now.

[Ant10708]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Ant: Kahl always brings something to a discussion. Oh, and you know that there are stances other than 'with us or against us', right? People can talk shit about Israel and it's many human rights abuses without also praising the sewerage systems of the West Bank.

no shit thats why i mentioned about the pakistan people i know who talk shit about the us govts fopriegn policy but also condem suicide bombers and the tactics being used by their people. thats the exact opposite of with us or agaisnt us(tahts looking at both sides of a situation without being an idiot). these people in the middle east need to do the same. i work with these people and generally agree with them about our foriegn policy. but talking shit about israel as the sole cause of their problems and pretending that palestinians uphold human rights better is just absurd to me. i get my news from bbc which is def not pro israel but i can still be well read enough to know that the palestinians will never get anything they want if they keep fighting for the destruction of israel. the isralies atleast make an effort(like pulling back settlements) and not straight up bombing them entirely. most countries wouldnt put up a group of people next door to them calling for their destruction. they have arabs in their country who dont live as comfortable life but they arent treated the way a jew would be treated in palestine. i watched a documentary where i think a british reporter was killed by an israeli tank(obviously one of the problems of israel) while he waved a white flag but before that he was in a home with palestinians and they were teaching their kids that jews were dogs. They don't even know that most people driving tanks on their lands are mostly arabs. Their culture has a fundalmental problem with tolerance especially when it comes to women, different religions, or anything they dont fucking approve of. Denying that is insane and an insult to women and jewish people most of all. Israel has a problem maybe with their military tactics but i dont believe they have racism and hate seeping into their culture like a virus. thats my point. the jewish population on long island doesnt start killing muslims because the palestinians blow up cafes in israel. but for some reason many mulims blow themselves up because of the plight of the palestinians. if palestine could take over israel tomorrow and the terrorists in the middle east would just start fighting amongst themselves for power or concentrate on another group of people(russians maybe) they deem fit to kill. I just don't understand how people support modern day middle eastern culture. They routinely circumcise women as a punishment and teach their kids using only the koran. they are backwards culture compared to the western world.

even when the taliban was gone the men of afghanstan didnt suddenly start treating women like humans. the men are taught its ok to be an animal to women at a young age. thats not ok to me.

"Forced marriage, particularly of girl children, and violence against women in the family are widespread in many areas of the country. These crimes of violence continue with the active support or passive complicity of state agents, armed groups, families and communities. This continuing violence against women in Afghanistan causes untold suffering and denies women their fundamental human rights. "

"Even when a woman is able to approach the police or the courts, she faces extreme discrimination. "

"Ziba", aged only 14, was sentenced to three years in prison for running away from home. She had been abused by the cousin she had been forced to marry when she was 13. "

""If my husband cannot prove to his family that I am a virgin, I would be hounded, ostracised and sent home in disgrace. My father, who is a devout Muslim, would regard it as the ultimate shame."

""The entire family could be cast out from the friends and society they hold dear, and I honestly believe that one of my fanatically religious cousins or uncles might kill me in revenge, to purge them of my sins. Incredible as it may seem, honour killings are still accepted within our religion." -pakistani woman who had her hymen "restored"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...#ixzz0k6gXU6rj


Rea

I don't know how these people are accepted or excused or explained by what seems like educated people. The culture has problems. Many have no naccess to information and are brainwashed since birth. If you think all their problems stem solely from us or israel then i think your wrong. this is the 21st century and women are still routinely subjected to honor killings by their families and we are suppose to want to understand that culture? i understand that its been perverted and is desperatly in need of reform or some sane people in power who are not still living in the 19th and early 20th century frame of mind.

if neo nazis started routinly doing the things being done in the middle east there would be an uproar and it wouldnt be tolerated for one second atleast in america. for some reason being muslim gives you a right to be a racist and treat women like dogs without being questioned.

[Zhukov]

but talking shit about israel as the sole cause of their problems and pretending that palestinians uphold human rights better is just absurd to me.

Nobody is saying that, hence:

People can talk shit about Israel and it's many human rights abuses without also praising the sewerage systems of the West Bank.

It is perfectly acceptable to view both groups with the same scrutiny. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to focus on Israel without also feeling compelled to 'balance' things out by throwing in criticism towards the Palestinians as well. We're not children, and you can't assume we are supporting terrorism (oh, whatever that word may mean) from Palestinians simply because we don't support it from Israel.

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by Ant10708

no shit thats why i mentioned about the pakistan people i know who talk shit about the us govts fopriegn policy but also condem suicide bombers and the tactics being used by their people. thats the exact opposite of with us or agaisnt us(tahts looking at both sides of a situation without being an idiot). these people in the middle east need to do the same. i work with these people and generally agree with them about our foriegn policy. but talking shit about israel as the sole cause of their problems and pretending that palestinians uphold human rights better is just absurd to me. i get my news from bbc which is def not pro israel but i can still be well read enough to know that the palestinians will never get anything they want if they keep fighting for the destruction of israel. the isralies atleast make an effort(like pulling back settlements) and not straight up bombing them entirely. most countries wouldnt put up a group of people next door to them calling for their destruction. they have arabs in their country who dont live as comfortable life but they arent treated the way a jew would be treated in palestine. i watched a documentary where i think a british reporter was killed by an israeli tank(obviously one of the problems of israel) while he waved a white flag but before that he was in a home with palestinians and they were teaching their kids that jews were dogs. They don't even know that most people driving tanks on their lands are mostly arabs. Their culture has a fundalmental problem with tolerance especially when it comes to women, different religions, or anything they dont fucking approve of. Denying that is insane and an insult to women and jewish people most of all. Israel has a problem maybe with their military tactics but i dont believe they have racism and hate seeping into their culture like a virus. thats my point. the jewish population on long island doesnt start killing muslims because the palestinians blow up cafes in israel. but for some reason many mulims blow themselves up because of the plight of the palestinians. if palestine could take over israel tomorrow and the terrorists in the middle east would just start fighting amongst themselves for power or concentrate on another group of people(russians maybe) they deem fit to kill. I just don't understand how people support modern day middle eastern culture. They routinely circumcise women as a punishment and teach their kids using only the koran. they are backwards culture compared to the western world.

even when the taliban was gone the men of afghanstan didnt suddenly start treating women like humans. the men are taught its ok to be an animal to women at a young age. thats not ok to me.

I don't think that it's ok, nor does anyone else here either. We are not discussing how to solve those issues, we are discussing terrorism, why it happens, and how to effectively combat it.

Originally Posted by Ant10708

I don't know how these people are accepted or excused or explained by what seems like educated people. The culture has problems. Many have no naccess to information and are brainwashed since birth. If you think all their problems stem solely from us or israel then i think your wrong. this is the 21st century and women are still routinely subjected to honor killings by their families and we are suppose to want to understand that culture? i understand that its been perverted and is desperatly in need of reform or some sane people in power who are not still living in the 19th and early 20th century frame of mind.

if neo nazis started routinly doing the things being done in the middle east there would be an uproar and it wouldnt be tolerated for one second atleast in america. for some reason being muslim gives you a right to be a racist and treat women like dogs without being questioned.

You're so fucking stupid. You're explaining it right there. They have problems. Sure, you're not going into detail or stating anything that could possibly help anyone but you're so simple minded that you can't even keep up with what me and Zhukov are posting about. You're like a juggalo version of coolinator, except what you believe is actually accepted by most people who aren't actually educated on terrorism.

[kahljorn]

well i just wanted you to know why considering any act that has the intent to cause terror terrorism might be problematic.

[The Leader]

WHO ARE YOU RESPONDING TOO

[kahljorn]

WHO ARE YOU RESPONDING TOO

Coolinator, Zhukov and ant?

[kahljorn]

no shit thats why i mentioned about the pakistan people i know who talk shit about the us govts fopriegn policy but also condem suicide bombers and the tactics being used by their people. thats the exact opposite of with us or agaisnt us(tahts looking at both sides of a situation without being an idiot).

You mean the people you know who had the money/influence/something to escape their home country? yea, they are totally a part of the palestinian culture...

most countries wouldnt put up a group of people next door to them calling for their destruction.

Most countries wouldn't put up with people occupying a piece of land which they used to own right next door, especially if it was important. Isn't that pretty much consistent throughout most cases of terrorism, too? Having had a part of your country occupied?

Their culture has a fundalmental problem with tolerance especially when it comes to women, different religions, or anything they dont fucking approve of. Denying that is insane and an insult to women and jewish people most of all.

Well, kind of depends on which person you're talking about right?
but anyway I sort of like this about their culture. At least they are sincere in their religious convictions.

they are backwards culture compared to the western world.

lol. Who's the one that's intolerant of other people's religions/cultures?

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Most countries wouldn't put up with people occupying a piece of land which they used to own right next door, especially if it was important. Isn't that pretty much consistent throughout most cases of terrorism, too? Having had a part of your country occupied?

No man, it's cause they're a bunch of towel heads with their different kind of bible and churches that teach them how to make IED's (that improvised explosive device i heard about them on the bbc lol). If they were western they woudlnt' be doing none of this.

[Ant10708]

nevermind why bother

[Zhukov]

Jesus The Leader get a grip man.


This is a bomb blast that happened just down from where I live now. It was a long time ago though.

[The Leader]

Originally Posted by Ant10708

nevermind why bother

I missed this post. Let my tell you why: Because by continuing the debate with "I don't understand people like you Leader" you can prove that we shouldn't study terrorism but just blow shit up.

I hope this helps.

[The Leader]

The Muslims because they're different.

[The Leader]

Seriously, the Palestinians should just get over Israeli occupation. Sure they live walled in, treated as second class citizens but the Israelis are better than them because they're more like us so the Palestinians need to just shut the f*ck up.

[The Leader]

Plus being humiliated and dominated by a foreign power isn't something people should fight about. Unless they're us. Then it's completely reasonable to kill people.

[Zhukov]

I find it strange that you don't see the Palestinians as having genuine grievances not because you disagree with their historical claims (which, you do, but it's not your main reason) but because you consider their culture to be wrong (which it may be, but it's got nothing to do with their demands behind their struggle).

Or do people that treat women as second class citizens not deserve basic justice and human rights? Now who's the backwards barbarian?

Should the actual acts of a group legitimise their struggle? Or should the struggle simply legitimise itself? Take for example the various groups of Irish Republicans over the decades; mostly left wing, mostly progressive. They want social reform as well as their national freedom, but do they deserve it any more than the Palestinians, simply because their culture is different? (I too would say BETTER rather than DIFFERENT, but I don't have any qualms about appearing disdainful of backwards peoples). Rebublicans don't use suicide bombing, generally aren't religious - or it's not a requirement - and although nobody would be surprised to find quite a lot of hate for the occupiers, there is no hatred of the English people. Do the Irish deserve Northern Ireland more than the Palestinians deserve Palestine?

[TheCoolinator]

Irony of the Day:

Israel has been waging a holocaust against the Palestinian people since its inception.

Can anyone say "war crimes"?

[The Leader]

Yeah, but it's ok because America supports them! :D

[TheCoolinator]

Originally Posted by The Leader

Yeah, but it's ok because America supports them! :D

3 billion dollars a year + free weapons = A lot of dead innocent palestinians.

Wouldn't that be considered state sponsored terrorism? Hmmm

[Zhukov]

You don't hear about this in the news, but American soldiers actually train in Israel as part of their training. Not just training, but their training includes serving as a front line soldier. So America sends soldiers to kill Palestinians, basically.