osama bin laden is dead

[Zhukov]

No, but mostly there would have been some evidence to prove his guilt in a recognised court of law, and also executing people on the spot is not the 'justice' of a nation that pretends to care about human rights.



As a bonus, his capture could also have been proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[WhiteRat]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

No, but mostly there would have been some evidence to prove his guilt in a recognised court of law, and also executing people on the spot is not the 'justice' of a nation that pretends to care about human rights.

Uh, yes it is. Most Americans are fine with this and care little of what the rest of the world thinks on this issue.

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by WhiteRat

Uh, yes it is. Most Americans are fine with this and care little of what the rest of the world thinks on this issue.

How about it's the justice of a nation who's government cares little of what the world thinks on the issue?

Tadao; that cuts deep

[WhiteRat]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

How about it's the justice of a nation who's government cares little of what the world thinks on the issue?

Oops, forgot to mention government as well!

OB(gyn)L declared war 15 years ago, he got one, and now he's dead. I really don't see what the issue is here but since you will keep whining about a "fair trial" I guess on that issue I can say no one really gives a fuck what other countries think about it.

[Zhukov]

Pentegarn: are you saying that if Osama had gotten a trial you are worried that he would have gotten off? Haha, I don't think so, but if he did and your trial is fair then, well, that's fair.

I don't think so though.


White Rat: You're right, few people in America give a fuck about Osama getting a trial, let alone a fair one. That doesn't make it right. It makes the situation a worrying one; your government can execute people on the spot and nobody cares. The most likely situation is that this isn't a one of special occasion, it's the precedent for the same thing happening again and again in the future.

Accused "terrorists" are already incarcerated indefinitely and subject to torture without their guilt being proven, and while many people around the world are outraged, it's still going on because not enough people in the US care about the rights of people that their government tells them are evil.

I do believe Osama was a terrorist, and certainly a criminal, but executing him on the spot prevents the other side of the 9/11 story (and other stuff) from being known, and it allows your government to pick and choose who it dishes out rights too.

I thought Americans were meant to be wary of 'big government'? Why do so many people stand idly by while the government gives itself more and more ways to control them?

[Colonel Flagg]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Accused "terrorists" are already incarcerated indefinitely and subject to torture without their guilt being proven, and while many people around the world are outraged, it's still going on because not enough people in the US care about the rights of people that their government tells them are evil.

Define "many". By any measure there are many in the States who feel the same way, but there are more groups of dissaffected, misinformed or mindless lemmings that will remain silent and let the goverment do what it wants. You probably have this problem in Australia too.

I do believe Osama was a terrorist, and certainly a criminal, but executing him on the spot prevents the other side of the 9/11 story (and other stuff) from being known, and it allows your government to pick and choose who it dishes out rights too.

As others have pointed out, Wikileaks will probably have the video of the takedown posted on YouTube within a few months anyway, so what's the diff? Even so, this still will only be one version of the truth i.e. one viewpoint of the operation.

I thought Americans were meant to be wary of 'big government'? Why do so many people stand idly by while the government gives itself more and more ways to control them?

See comment #1 above.

Damn. This discussion reminds me of something .... (F-)

[Zhukov]

Well, video of them shooting him isn't going to explain in detail how he masterminded 9/11. I'm not saying that is the reason he shouldn't have been killed, I'm saying that is something that has been lost because of it.

I also don't mean to just be picking on the USA; if Australia was in the same position and it all went down the same way then I'd be surprised if his execution would arouse outrage from the majority of the population here either. I was impressed by the support of David Hicks (Australian held in Guantanamo Bay and tortured) but it was more the fact that he was a white Australian in trouble, and there is little support for other detainees.

There are 'many' people inside the US that would be unhappy about the incarceration and torture of "suspected" terrorists, I don't deny it.



Australians aren't wary of big government; they are just apathetic about everything unless it's Islam and Asians TAKING JOBS.

[WhiteRat]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Pentegarn: are you saying that if Osama had gotten a trial you are worried that he would have gotten off? Haha, I don't think so, but if he did and your trial is fair then, well, that's fair.

I don't think so though.


White Rat: You're right, few people in America give a fuck about Osama getting a trial, let alone a fair one. That doesn't make it right. It makes the situation a worrying one; your government can execute people on the spot and nobody cares. The most likely situation is that this isn't a one of special occasion, it's the precedent for the same thing happening again and again in the future.

Accused "terrorists" are already incarcerated indefinitely and subject to torture without their guilt being proven, and while many people around the world are outraged, it's still going on because not enough people in the US care about the rights of people that their government tells them are evil.

I do believe Osama was a terrorist, and certainly a criminal, but executing him on the spot prevents the other side of the 9/11 story (and other stuff) from being known, and it allows your government to pick and choose who it dishes out rights too.

I thought Americans were meant to be wary of 'big government'? Why do so many people stand idly by while the government gives itself more and more ways to control them?

I guess what i'm trying to make clear is that Osama was a military target. 9/11 and his 1997 declaration of war aside, he was also responsible for the bombing of the USS Cole that killed 6 sailors in 2000. Sure he was without a nation's flag but he "commanded" an army of pseudo-solders that has been fighting US and global forces for years. This is why I don't see a problem with how he was killed, and judging by popular American opinion, they feel it's justified.

Bin Laden was public enemy number 1. Like I said before, I don't think it's right to marginalize his actions and effect on the US and to a lesser extent, the world. Maybe since you aren't American you aren't effected by his actions and simply can't understand the effect he's had on this country. Simply put, this was a "special case". Bin Laden wasn't some white Australian guy or some extremists that were rounded up in Afghanistan or Yemen or some other middle east hotspot. It was OBL. I really shouldn't have to explain more, like I said, it's fucking BIN LADEN.

Yeah a lot of people want Gitmo to go. What does that have to do with Bin Laden being killed?

Please explain what you mean by "other stuff" regarding the "other side" of 9/11. If this is a truther thing you need not reply.

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by WhiteRat

I guess what i'm trying to make clear is that Osama was a military target. 9/11 and his 1997 declaration of war aside, he was also responsible for the bombing of the USS Cole that killed 6 sailors in 2000. Sure he was without a nation's flag but he "commanded" an army of pseudo-solders that has been fighting US and global forces for years. This is why I don't see a problem with how he was killed, and judging by popular American opinion, they feel it's justified.

I see a problem with this because I don't think he was a military target (but that's not my point) and it's scary to see who can become a military target. Suspected terrorists are a military target, if you can stretch the law for them, then you can stretch the law for whomever you want.

Popular opinion. OK, I get that, and I'm not out in the streets marching for Osama's rights, and I understand that not many people in the US (or in other western countries) would, I suppose that I'm worried that a nation of people can say "fuck ethics, but just this once, ok kids?".

Bin Laden was public enemy number 1. Like I said before, I don't think it's right to marginalize his actions and effect on the US and to a lesser extent, the world. Maybe since you aren't American you aren't effected by his actions and simply can't understand the effect he's had on this country. Simply put, this was a "special case". Bin Laden wasn't some white Australian guy or some extremists that were rounded up in Afghanistan or Yemen or some other middle east hotspot. It was OBL. I really shouldn't have to explain more, like I said, it's fucking BIN LADEN.

No, I do 'get' that it was Osama Bin Laden, most wanted no1 and all that, and I hope you don't think that I am blase about 3000 odd people dying like some people; I'm not. I'm not a big fan of "special case" scenarios, because they turn into the norm for whomever is the topical enemy of the month for governments the world over.

Yeah a lot of people want Gitmo to go. What does that have to do with Bin Laden being killed?

It's an example of rights being disregarded for special circumstances. Special circumstances that will happen time and time again, for more and more people.

Please explain what you mean by "other stuff" regarding the "other side" of 9/11. If this is a truther thing you need not reply.

Truther thing? I was saying that if you captured him then you could learn just HOW he planned it. Everyone knows OSAMA DID IT, but I certainly don't know how he planned it. If someone already knows then I guess I missed that info.



Pentegarn: We aren't talking about OJ Simpson, and do you not understand the faulty logic in saying: 'person X murders someone, person x is given a fair trial, person x is found not guilty'....? Hint: It's not a fair trial. If a fair trial produces an outcome (like Osama getting off - yeah right) then that is fair. That's the essence of a fair trial, it produces a fair outcome. Why are we talking about Osama being found innocent, why are you making up these ridiculous hypothetical situations?

Another thing, I doubt Osama would be given a good chance to sway people to his branch of fundamentalist Islam by US military controlled TV. Even if he did spout a truly mesmerizing monologue, something tells me they would edit that bit out. You know, maybe. Anyway, what difference does it make if propaganda tape after propaganda tape is shown on FOX news? Hasn't stopped them before, and it hasn't made that much of a dent in the American spirit, has it? Are you worried about something?

Leave the discussion of your views up to more intelligent people, for your own good.

[Pentegarn]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Pentegarn: are you saying that if Osama had gotten a trial you are worried that he would have gotten off? Haha, I don't think so, but if he did and your trial is fair then, well, that's fair.

I don't think so though.

People said the same thing about OJ Simpson. The evidence was all there. DNA matches, fingerprints, several witness giving all sorts of accounts pointing to motive. It should have been an open and shut case. But because the defense decided to make the case about the police who arrested him, the parameters of justice were warped and distorted. With the right defender, and people who dislike America pushing their agenda in the arena of public opinion, he may well have gotten off on a technicality. And if it were a world trial, ran by the joke we all call the UN, well I shudder to think how badly that would have gone. Simply put my point here is that a trial does not always bring justice, despite your protests to the contrary.

You talk of wanting his side of 9/11, but he has given it, multiple times on multiple propaganda tapes. He hates America enough to kill thousands of people he has never met and is too cowardly to face. You have already heard this and I assume you are smart enough to know if he were on trial you would hear it again. What you really seem to want is to give him another chance to spread anti-America propaganda. Why is this?

You say if he got a fair trial and got off it would be fair, but how can this be? Even you cannot deny he was responsible for the death of thousands. If he walked for that on some sort of technicality in a 'fair trial' would you really feel justice were served? Would you go to the terrorist internet forums and tell them that their use of the word justice is wrong?