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  #101  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:18 PM        Eh
Wish I had seen this earlier. There were a number of Crusades, some more negligable than others, but only one truly successful one, and two partially sucessful.


Chimp: It was actually destroyed twice. The first time by the Babylonians circa 400 BC and then by the Romans in either 70 AD or 70 BC (one of those).

70 A.D.

Chimp: Yeah, but as the saying goes, "absolute power corrupts absolutely." I recall seeing a TLC program about the Crusades that said the Pope wanted to solidify his authority in Europe and expand his influence to all Christians. We probably will never know all the reasons.

As I understand it, the first Crusade was motivated primarily by the threat the Moslem's represented against Europe. The war between Byzantine and the Moslems was an odd mix of religious fervitude and imperialistic dynasty building, and lasted for some three hundred years before the Moslems finally triumphed over them. it was at that point the Pope, and many European leaders as well, became aware of how great the threat to their own security truly was. The Pope's only real action to encourage the conflict during the period was to promise that any Moslem slain by European hands would not be considered a sin as they were striking out of their own self defense. However, after proving sucessful in the early stages of the war, they decided to take that as a sign of God's favour and hence decided to go down into the Middle East and liberate Jerusalem - An odd reflection of America's actions of late, but thats neither here nor there.



Chimp: It still boils down to the fact that the raids started after the Crusades began. The Europeans were considered to be foreign invaders.

Indeed, as was the United States when MacArthur pushed the Chinese-supported North Koreans all the way back into lower China in the fifties. The Moslems had been fighting offensively for such an extended period of time, they had not expected for any counter offensive measures - And who could blame them? There had been no previous precedent for such action from the docile Europeans.


Chimp: The fact of the matter is, though, that the Muslims were centuries ahead of Europe. The only reason why European scholars had copies of classical literature to study and imitate during the Renaissance is mostly because Arabs were big fans of Greek and Roman stuff and made hundreds of copies.

Hmmm, this is one of those statements I dislike arguing with because it's rather arbitrary. It was the Turks who invented the idea of true hospitols, 'western' medication and institutionalized places of learning (i.e. schools as we know them now). Arabians offered astrology (which was drastically inferior to some of the knowledge known in lower China at the time) and Algebra (which is only one facet of higher mathematics), and while these are great improvements, what qualifies them as better than what we learned from the Romans (tactics, government, physics), the Greeks (philosophy, art, theory, govenrment) Europeans (science, astronomy, physics) or any other existing culture?
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  #102  
AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:28 PM       
A lot of the classical knowledge was lost to Europe during the Middle Ages. I'm not saying that Muslim-garnered knowledge is better than anywhere else, but without them, it would have most likely disappeared forever.

The Chinese were probably just as advanced as the Muslims, but it would be a few centuries before Europeans travelled there enough for oriental ideas to impact on Europe in a substantial way.

All I wanted to say was that the Muslims were living in huge cities and intricate palaces while the stupid white man was mucking around in muddy fields.
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  #103  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:35 PM        Heheh
Mmm, lately we have had an 'apologist' movement here on campus where it seems people feel the need to atone for the fact they are white. I can neither understand nor condone it. I realize there is much in European and American history which is ugly in its own right and many of us would be happy to forget, but I think we would be making a great mistake in assuming the villainification of Europeans simply because of the fact they are European, or for Americans either.

The contracted war between Byzantine and the Moslems lasted long enough for it to be considered uncontroversial fact. Due to this, I feel confident in assuming that blame does not lie solely with the Europeans in this conflict.
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  #104  
ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:38 PM        Re: Heheh
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Mmm, lately we have had an 'apologist' movement here on campus where it seems people feel the need to atone for the fact they are white. I can neither understand nor condone it. I realize there is much in European and American history which is ugly in its own right and many of us would be happy to forget, but I think we would be making a great mistake in assuming the villainification of Europeans simply because of the fact they are European, or for Americans either.
i have noticed the same thing ror. hell, i even wrote a paper about it....it got a failing grade because my prof. thought that i was deliberately insensitive. :/

you should read "the death of the west" it talks about what you are saying and it helped me understand it a lot more.
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  #105  
AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:46 PM       
I AM OFFENDED.

edit: And so is the little black kid inside me.
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  #106  
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:48 PM       
I AM OFFENDED THAT YOU ARE OFFENDED

MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO TAKE A SHIT
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  #107  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Feb 5th, 2003, 08:52 PM       
I would just like to add that during the Dark Ages in Europe, the Irish monks also kept most of the Classical World on record. It was reintroduced shortly before the Crusades. Of course, the English did a great job of wiping out the progress and institutions the Irish built so well.
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  #108  
The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Feb 6th, 2003, 03:54 PM        Heheh
My Grandmother used to read us stories by YB Yeats (I believe it was Yeats anyway) which portrayed Ireland as haven for intellectuals and philosophers. As I got older and learned a bit more of the histories, I began to assume it was just so much bullshit.

Mind if I ask your source there Blanco? Never bothered looking into it too deeply myself, but it'd be nice to know for certain one way or the other.
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  #109  
Royal Tenenbaum Royal Tenenbaum is offline
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Old Feb 9th, 2003, 10:19 PM       
Quote:
posted by Achimp:
"Actually, the newbie has a valid point.

Religion has always, always, always turned into a source of power for the people in charge. If it didn't, there would never have been any conflict between the Catholic and Protestant churches when Luther came up with his new concept of Christianity while in the throes of agony brought on by chronic constipation.

Europe in the Middle Ages might as well have been a theocracy. Egyptian pharoahs were considered to be actual gods and had the ultimate level of power over absolutely everything. It's also been shown that the Sumerian priests had very strict control over their entire civilization.

EDIT: This actually reminds me of a quote some of my friends told me about. I think it's by William Blake:

"Your vision of Christ doth be my vision's greatest enemy.""
No offense, but that is the shittiest fucking mis-quote I have ever witnessed in my life. The quote is, "The vision of Chirst that you doth see, is my vision's greatest enemy," by William Blake. Don't fucking quote shit you don't know; to quote the Big Lebowski, you are completely "out of your element." So very fucking bin.
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  #110  
AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Feb 9th, 2003, 10:21 PM       
Close enough.
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  #111  
slavemason slavemason is offline
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Old Feb 10th, 2003, 01:48 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Close enough.
Speaking of "Close Enough". it doesn't count in Horseshoes and Hand Grenades. If you come close to getting a ringer, it's worth 1 point not 5. If you come close to killing me with a hand grenade, I could still shoot you in the head. I wonder if I'll come close to going to heaven.
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