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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 07:36 PM        Terri Schiavo
The Schiavo Act has passed the Senate, and it will be debated tonight on the House floor at 9 pm ET. There will be a vote shortly after midnight.

I believe this will pass, because from what I've heard, many leading Democrats don't want to touch this with a 10 ft. pole. Nobody said a thing in the Senate, and the only thing House Democrats have done thus far is put off the time of debate.

If this passes, while it at least momentarily saves the life of one woman, it also sets a potential precedent on so called right-to-die matters in America. Should our federal government even be playing a role in what has been primarily a state, court, and family matter?

Supposedly, a controversial memo was circulated around on the Hill by Republicans, outlining the potential electoral gains that this bill might gain them in their respective districts. That memo probably has something to do with the relative silence amongst Democrats, even though many Republicans have since distanced themselves from the memo.

Terri Schiavo is in what is called a persistent vegetative state. According to neurologists, this means she isn't aware of her surroundings, and there is no thought pattern going on. According to her family, she is responsive, she laughs with them, and "talks." According to Rep. Tom DeLay, Schiavo has never really received an extensive neurological examination, or any other cursory sort of examination, because her husband refuses to put her in a medical facility capable of such stuff. He instead has kept her in a hospice, which is where people go to die. But I think it's fair to say that Terri hadn't actually been dying until her feeding tube had been removed. Now she is starving to death, which seems to be rather barbaric to me.

Her husband, btw, has since remarried, and has children. Schiavo never stated what her wishes would be under such circumstances, but her husband claims "sending her to be with God" would be her wish (even though Terri was a devout Roman Catholic, and this very practice has been denounced by her Church).

Tune in at 9 pm.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 08:42 PM        Re: Terri Schiavo
double trouble!
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 08:57 PM       
Seems to me that keeping someone with no prognosis of recovery alive by machines is a bit grotesque. I know if I were in a vegatative state, and the doctors were telling my family I'd never recover, I wouldn't want them to drain their finances and emotions keeping me alive in a hospital for years and years, just in case.

You would think though, that a licensed physician (neurologist? - whatever) should have to confirm whether or not she was truly braindead before anyone would be allowed to shut thigns off.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 09:13 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
You would think though, that a licensed physician (neurologist? - whatever) should have to confirm whether or not she was truly braindead before anyone would be allowed to shut thigns off.
Yeah, I'm a bit confused about whether or not this has happened. I've heard some say she's a vegetable for all intents and purposes. However, I've also heard that in fifteen years she hasn't had comprehensive enough evaluation to truly determine that, especially since she's been kept under hospice care.

I dunno, the problem with this case is that there seems to be a lot of heresay floating around. I've heard that Michael Schiavo refuses to allow the hospice nurses to move her from her bed, causing the bed sores you may have seen on her face. I've heard he won't allow nurses to brush her teeth.

Others note that he has turned down large sums of money offered to him in exchange for her life and guardian status. But to me it seems like he will benefit simply from an emotional position. He has a new life, a new family, and Terri simply lingers as a constant reminder that he can never truly move forward without considering her. So while I think Terri's parents are certainly motivated by the selfish desire to preserve their daughters life, Michael also seems to have his own selfish motivations.
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 09:38 PM       
No doubt, no doubt. I wouldn't wish this decision on anyone.
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Ant10708 Ant10708 is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 09:55 PM       
So this woman's family wants to take care of her but her husband won't allow it and now her feeding tube has been removed?

Don't you need some type of signature from the person(before the accident) to take her off life support?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 10:11 PM       
Her husband argues that she once told him that she wouldn't want to be kept alive on life support. I've also heard that there are witnesses who can substantiate this claim. I dunno how true that is though. However, it is true that this has gone to court in Florida several times, and every time, the courts have ruled in favor of Michael Schiavo.
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 12:36 AM       
The thing that gets me about this is that people are saying "When God wants her, God will take her". Well, it seems to ME, at least, that God wanted her a long time ago, and the parents have been saing a big "FUCK YOU" to God ever since.
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Zebra 3 Zebra 3 is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 01:23 AM       
I've read that Terry Schiavo among other things was a Starsky & Hutch fan.
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 06:42 AM       
I think that's the first funny thing you've ever said on these boards.

Both parties in this situation seem pretty suspect, if you go by what you hear. I just feel terribly sorry for the woman that's being pulled back and forth, even if she might not be really aware of it.

I read a timeline of the case in the paper this morning, and it suggested that her feeding tube has been removed and reinserted several times? Or was it just that the verdict on putting it back in has been recalled multiple times?
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 10:27 AM       
You put the food tube in,
You take the food tube out.
You put the food tube in,
And you shake it all about.
You do the hokey-pokey,
And you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about!
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 10:58 AM       
Wow, Zig! Horrible, funny, callous, mean spirited, and under it all an almost zen like summation of the human condition. THAT my friend, is my kind of joke.

Apart from that, I have no opinion on the right or wrong of this case. It's a horrible tragedy, and you can't put yourself in the shoes of the husband or the parents unless you'bve actually been through this. The information is so horribly muddled at this point that I would despair of being truly informed on her actual condition or the sate of the science behind it.

Here's what I have an opinion on. This being taken up in special session by congress to perform an end run around the judicial branch of government is an abomination, and just one more sign of the contempt the current Republican administration has for our carefully balanced system of government. I also find it sickening how willing our representatives are to take a very personal tragedy and roll around in it like a dog in cow shit. A special session? W returning in haste from vacation? How many times did this same man as governor of Texas with the legitimate power of life and death in his hands, allow Alberto Gonzales and the courts execute potentially innocent poeople in Texas? How many times did he say it was not his place to interfere in matters of life and death where the courts had already pass judgement? How many crises has he NOT cut short vacations (which he takes more often than any modern president, including Reagan) for? How cynical. If the literal hell fundamentalists believe in exists, there may well be a few senators and congressmen sincere enough about this to avoid it. But I'm certain the doors are wide open for people using this families tragedy as a wedge issue.
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 01:21 PM       
[center:a1e42908d2]
i would like a feding tube please[/center:a1e42908d2]

imho, the nice thing about this is that any possible outcome is going to be purely symbolic

sure, it really doesn't matter if schiavo's parents want to play dress-up, just like it doesn't really matter if i turn your corpse into my own personal fuck-playground. sure there's compelling evidence that this "isn't what you wanted" but hey, what about my feelings? i'll even pay the costs out of pocket to keep your flesh supple and fuckable for weeks, plus take care of disposal.

ps no offense intended but kevin are you getting your information from a badly spelled email forward? neurologists interpreted cat scan results as indicating that schiavo's cerebral cortex has been replaced with spinal fluid
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 04:16 PM       
Cut her in half longways.
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 04:59 PM       
it's hardly a scientfic poll but: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/21/schiavo/index.html
there poll shows that 68% think the husband should decide, and only a scant 1% think this should be decided by the politicians. Yet here comes the gummymint to the rescue. Ain't it kewl how our system works?

And has anyone ever heard anyone say "You know, if I'm ever in that condition, do everything in your power to see that I stay alive for as long as possible."?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:08 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
This being taken up in special session by congress to perform an end run around the judicial branch of government is an abomination, and just one more sign of the contempt the current Republican administration has for our carefully balanced system of government.
But if a death row inmate can appeal their case to the supreme court, why can't the family of Terri Schiavo? There's legislation in the Florida state legislature to try to allow just such a thing, but too little too late in Terri Schiavo's case.

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If the literal hell fundamentalists believe in exists, there may well be a few senators and congressmen sincere enough about this to avoid it. But I'm certain the doors are wide open for people using this families tragedy as a wedge issue.
I think, while some clearly may have used it as a stunt, most saw this as a serious matter. Many were compelled I'm sure by their own moral beliefs. Keep in mind, this vote even split the Democrats. The most vocal ones were opposed, but if you look at the vote, basically the same amount voted in favor of it.

I will concede however that the way this passed through the Senate would be hilarious, if it weren't of course so terribly sad and pathetic. Three members. Santorum, Frist, and somebody else. Three guys stood in the chamber and played out parliamentary procedures. It would've made any bannana republic proud.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:12 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrida
ps no offense intended but kevin are you getting your information from a badly spelled email forward? neurologists interpreted cat scan results as indicating that schiavo's cerebral cortex has been replaced with spinal fluid
ps She has never had an MRI or a PET, all standard procedures for people in her condition. Her husband has blocked any attempt.

ps she survives on the same things we do, food and water.

You can argue away her humanity all you like, but the fact is that we wouldn't kill a dog the way this woman is being terminated.
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ScruU2wice ScruU2wice is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:08 AM       
ok, slightly related story. One of my mom's friends got in a car accident and was in a coma for 5 years. Alot of people lost hope and on top of that her mom died of cancer while she was in the coma. It was a sticky situation and I don't know if they were ever about to "pull the plug" but they didn't and she came to 5 years later.
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:17 AM       
Oh look what I got here, fellow rubberneckers, it's Dr. Jay Wolfson's (Terri's guardian ad litem in 2003) report for Gov. Bush. It's a pdf so I can't cut and paste, but if you wanna read it - CLICK and enjoy you sick fucks.

Looks like Hypothesis IV won out.

One thing tho, Kev, you said yourself there's a lot of hearsay in this case, so do you mind if I ask for your source for the statment that her husband has blocked attempts at MRIs and PETs?

The report above says extensive testing, but it doesn't list what tests were performed.

Also, this link is a good explanation of CTs, MRIs, and PETs for anyone outside of the medical field (or who hasn't had a molecular biology or physical chemistry course in the last 5 years - THANKS INTERNET!).

from a libertarian blog on the issue:
Quote:
Since someone has to make decisions on behalf of non-competent adults, should that person be a family member or the state?

If it is a family member, how much oversight should the state have, and through what bodies? If the courts are the right body, what exactly has been wrong with their oversight in this case? If not the courts, then who?

Does anyone think the US Congress should get in the business of indefinitely ordering the continuation of care in contravention of the legal decisionmaker and state law, as it has done in this case?
One last remark, regarding the cruel termination of this woman: in Florida, doctor assisted suicide is illegal, so they can't put her down any more humanely than this without changing THAT law, but Congress isn't about to make an emergency session to violate states rights for no Kevorkian law!
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 08:54 AM       
I will admit that her termination is being done in a rather cruel way, but in any case, I wouldn't want to live the way she is living. They can't gas her or inject her to put her out of her misery, and keeping her in her misery is just as cruel (if not moreso) than taking out the feeding tube. She is in a near-vegitativer state anyway, so it isn't like she's going to feel all that much.

Sure, the husband seems motivated by selfish reasons, but at least the outcome is best for her. The parents are just fucking selfish through and through. I can understand not wanting to bury your child, but keeping that child alive until you yourself are dead when they should have died years ago is the epitome of selfishness.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 11:16 AM       
Her condition, the motives of the parents and the spouse, the nature of conciousness, what constitutes suffering... all of these things are fascinating and highly emotional issues, all worthy of much thought and soul searching.

As such they are perfect cover for a flagrant regard of separation of powers that damages our consititution and is a step toward totalitariansim. They are fully in keeping with the current Republican parties quest for power, a maneuver so bald they are not even slightly ashamed of dumping their long held belief in states rights, which this bunch only believes in should they not control the legislative and executive branch. Don't they make kids take civics in school anymore? I was taught that the main thing that makes America a Great Nation is that our founders feared totalitarianism and corruption and so created a system of seperation of powers and checks and blances between the three branches of government to guard against it.

Sincere or not, impassioned or not, for members of congress to see the life of a single individual, the status of which is debatable by people of good will, as grounds for circumventing a court decision they do not like is a HUGE abbregation of responsability. Assuming these elected men and women know at least as much basic civics as I it is also cynical and alarming.

Kevin, the Flordia legislture is a perfect place to argue for law affecting these sorts of cases and the legal courses they take. The congress would be a fine place to craft a bill regarding these sorts of cases and the legal course they take. A special 11'th hour session of congress to craft a law to alter the already rendered deciion of a court that follows the law as it currently stands for a single, speciffic individual is an abuse of powers. This abuse of powers is cloaked by the passions arouzsed by the case, and in my opinion, these passions, even if sincerely felt by our representatives , are being manipulated for cunical, political gain. Shame on the Republicans for having so little respect for our constitution. Shame on the Democrats for chosing fear of looking bad and loosing future votes over standing up for our constitution. Shame on a President who did not find a Tsunami that took tens of thousands of lives and left thousands more hanging in to cut short his vacation but did so for at best a single person and at worst cynical loathsome political gain. And W. is less culpable than most of congress, because I believe he does not understand basic civics.
And shame on people who confuse two issues; Terry Schiavo's tragedy and the way our system of government functions.
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:31 PM       
There was a doctor on the radio this morning that said that several experts say that her cerebral cortex has turned to mush, and she is completely incapable of any thought. The jerks and spasms that she sometimes has (which her family takes as "evidence" that she is recovering and will one day be completely normal... ) are just reflexes and random nerves firing. She's a total vegetable and the plug should have been pulled YEARS ago.

Her family is being retarded and need a reality check. This woman essentially died long ago and they need to let go. It's pathetic.

BTW, I'd pay some serious money to see Ziggy's song turned into a Flash movie.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:41 PM       
I'd take the body on a wonderful weekend adventure
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:43 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
There was a doctor on the radio this morning that said that several experts say that her cerebral cortex has turned to mush, and she is completely incapable of any thought.
If the parents know that, why would they keep her "alive"? It's clear she won't ever be coming back. In all manners (figurative and otherwise) of speaking, she's dead. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I heard true death occurs when the brain is dead.
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:58 PM       
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Originally Posted by Crash
If the parents know that, why would they keep her "alive"? It's clear she won't ever be coming back. In all manners (figurative and otherwise) of speaking, she's dead. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I heard true death occurs when the brain is dead.
http://uspolitics.about.com/b/a/149562.htm

Quote:
Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive . . . at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open-heart surgery. Within the testimony, as part of the hypothetical presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state.

In a footnote, Wolfson writes: During the course of the GAL’s investigation, the Schindlers allow that this is not accurate, and that they never intended to imply a gruesome maintenance of Theresa at all costs.

According to the columnist, "Wolfson told me that when Michael heard this, he said: 'That's it. I'm never going to let that happen to her.'"
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