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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 12:33 PM        Religious Evolution
Why does it seem that the early God(s) seem to have so much more human qualities (ex: Greek gods, vengeful Christian God that spoke from the heavens, ec) and that Heaven (or whatever paradise pertains) seemed like it was supposed to be a real, concreate place. Nowadays, however, if you talk to educated religious leaders, their talk of God and Heaven seems more metaphysical and they'll tell you, especially in Judaism and Christianity, that many parts of the Bible were supposed to be parables designed to teach and were not intended to be taken so literally. Did the people at that time deem them to be parables or did they truly see the miracles? ... or were the miracles things they saw in nature and simply didn't understand. If the miracles truly did exist, why haven't we seen any mountains talking lately? Just sayin'
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 12:56 PM       
Ill explain it in my own opinion the best I can.


As we get further and further away from a point in time, a place in time, etc., we tend to have our reality distorted. Look at Easter, Christmas, Memorial Day, etc. Also, words have lost meaning in our world. If you go by what was said in newspapers, ancient scripts and other such items, Beowulf was a real event. It was altered of course to make a better story, but there is a good analysis that it really was somewhat true. The word for Dinosaur is taken from a looser version of the word "Dragon".

I believe people truly saw the miracles back then. But as with everything, once time creeps on, people forget or try to rationalize it with something they believe is "concrete", like science. I mean, let's face it, if God showed up today and said that our comprehenion of reality based on our "science" was incorrect, then it would have to be incorrect because well... he is God. The religious types of our day are becoming more P.C. in trying to accomidate more people into the faith by saying that we shouldn't take the Bible at face value and there were fables and blah blah blah. People are even trying to change the way Jesus talked in the Bible, which if these people ever read the Bible, they would see that the last paragraph in the Bible is like the ultimate copyright law.


And miracles have happend before in modern history, we just try to talk them off like it can be explained with science, like the people who recieved a vision of the Virgin Mary back in the mid 20th century.

This subject takes a lot more time and effor that I can put into it right now, but I hope you can look through my ramblings and see where I am trying to go with it. Unless a need for God arises to intervene in human affairs, He usually steps away and lets us do the work. And besides, the Bible spans a time of thousands of years. So that doesn't mean that miracles happened every day; they just happened when they were necessary.
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The_voice_of_reason The_voice_of_reason is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 12:56 PM       
It amuses me that as science reveals more relgion shrinks.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:04 PM       
VOR, for a while it has been the other way around.
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:06 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_voice_of_reason
It amuses me that as science reveals more relgion shrinks.
In exact reverse proportion? In other words, are they actually the same thing on opposite sides of an equation? Actually, as science grows and new, more complicated theories evolve, they only find that there's yet more that remains constantly beyond their grasp be it at the microscopic or the macroscopic level. Rather than belittle my image of God, these truths only inspire more awe in how great and adaptive the intricacies of the universe are.
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:16 PM       
Vinth, you gave me the giggles.

Quote:
If you go by what was said in newspapers, ancient scripts and other such items, Beowulf was a real event.
Vinth, you seem to enjoy writing stories about your life, so what makes you think that people X number of thousand years ago didn't like writing stories?

If you go by what was said in ancient scripts and other such items, you would end up thinking that you really would fall off the edge of the Earth if you sailed too far. Is falling off the world a real event?

Quote:
The word for Dinosaur is taken from a looser version of the word "Dragon".
Um, it's actually derived from Greek and Latin for "terrible lizard", not "dragon." I suppose, though, that you could interpret "terrible lizard" as a euphemism for "dragon," but the basis is unlikely since the term "dinosaur" has only been around for a little over 100 years.

And, are you actually suggesting that humans and dinosaurs lived together?

Quote:
I mean, let's face it, if God showed up today and said that our comprehenion of reality based on our "science" was incorrect, then it would have to be incorrect because well... he is God.
If "God" showed up, there would be no way to prove that he was God and not an alien from a really advanced civlization. You just can't do it.

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Unless a need for God arises to intervene in human affairs, He usually steps away and lets us do the work.
What a convenient explanation for why God never shows up anymore. "God is telling us that we can handle it! Yay!"
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The_voice_of_reason The_voice_of_reason is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:19 PM       
Yes but every time some scientific theory comes along that contradicts what is taught in religion some group (see evolutionary creationists) will take up that theory into their religion taking away some of the awe involved in religion. So as science reveals more religion will lose some of its power. Remember 60 years ago the consent amoung christians was that the earth was only 35,000 years or so old. (see scopes monkey trial)
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:26 PM       
Hegel once said: "Truth is infinite: its finiteness is its denial."

Scientists realise that the more they figure out about the world, the more the world will produce something that needs figuring out. They realise that these things will never be out of their grasp for long.

The religious types are indeed becoming more PC, they are forced to flow with science, lest they be washed away. Instead of sticking with the originals, religious types evolve and change depending on society as it is at the moment. In the future, the bible may be taken as simply a nice story, or something to aspire to, and it will be the priests anf cardinals asserting this, for they don't want to lose their place in the world. Then again, if something profound changes the way the world is going at the moment - like their god poking it's head in - it will be the religious leaders who will denounce the 'modern' view of religion, and change to to suit the situation, namely, the original stuff.

I don't mean to upset anyone, but I think religion is the fad that never dies. Man has roughly the same effect on religion as it has on him.
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:35 PM       
I was just thinking ( I guess poetically) that as the value of science grows to infinity in my "equation", religion will dwindle to zero. We will then find out that science, which comes from man and actually "is" man, is infinite. Beautiful!
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:38 PM       
We should be like Kryptonians and worship science as our God.
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kellychaos kellychaos is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:45 PM       
I'll be pissed if I go to Hell and I see Nietzche laughing his ass off at me!
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:53 PM       
Vince: Jesus talked in the Bible, which if these people ever read the Bible, they would see that the last paragraph in the Bible is like the ultimate copyright law.

That afterword was written exclusively referring to the book of Revelations. "This book" of which John of Patmos speaks couldn't possibly refer to the bible as a whole because when he wrote it the ecumenical councils were centuries away from determing what constitutes scripture. I can't imagine any Catholic boy stepping foot into a seminary without knowing that.

I think dinosaur actually means "Thunder lizard", Achimp. "terrible lizard" is the translation they teach to little kids for "tyranosaurus rex" because they don't know what tyrant means.
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ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 01:58 PM       
this thread disgusts me.

we are most probably living in another Age of Enlightenment and religion is suffering for it. it will eventually come full circle.
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 02:22 PM       
To go back to topic, religion has become more abstract simply because science has filled in its place. Religion was developed to explain the unknown. The mechanism for this was mythology, by which you could "rationalize" phenomenon like the rising sun or lightning by relating it to the human experience, i.e. creating deific characters quite similar to ourselves.

Science comes in and performs the normal function of explaining life, so religion reverts to providing purpose: answering "why?" instead of "how?" Naturally, this leaves little room for mythology. Besides, arguments such as the means of justification seem more pertinent to the immortal soul than do the events of Paradise Lost. In the case of Judeo-Christianity, the Hexammeron creation story is comprised almost entirely of mythological stories stolen from other Semitic cultures. Per credo, I can say that these stories became "inspired" when they were consolidated under one pen by Moses, and thus from them we may derive some spiritual relevance. But to me, the idea that we should believe in a six-day creation is simply idiotic.
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 02:50 PM       
Would it be fair to say that polytheistic mythologies are more "colorful" (in that the gods were more humanly fallible), because they were written more by poets than priests? I can imagine they had a great deal of influence in their time simply because their stories would've made for the height of entertainment.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 09:44 PM       
Well, sethomas, I believe that anyone that thinks we are a decendant from a fucking money is an idiot.
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Sethomas Sethomas is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 09:58 PM       
I don't know of any evolutionary theory that says we're "decendant from a fucking money," so I think you're all by yourself on that issue. If you're showing your dismay with people who realize that we have common ancestors with monkeys, well, John Paul II would be insulted that you think he's an idiot.
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 10:11 PM       
Winston, you're forgetting that Vinth believes in Vatican I! Not II! I!
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The_voice_of_reason The_voice_of_reason is offline
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Old Jun 5th, 2003, 11:45 PM       
COME SEE THE BIGGEST RELGIOUS EVENT OF THE SUMMER, VATICAN III, THIS SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUNDAY!!!!
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theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Jun 6th, 2003, 12:43 AM       
Clearly, some humans haven't evolved from monkeys at all. Case in point, our resident simpleton, Vince.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 6th, 2003, 07:49 AM       
Oh man, thats real funny. I'm sorry if I don't believe in the fact that humans are nothing more than animals. Some of the greatest men in history thought were were nothing special. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Marx... those great people.
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 6th, 2003, 09:34 AM       


I laugh at your attempt to tack morality to the issue of evolution, Vinth.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 6th, 2003, 09:50 AM       
Laugh all you want. The links are there.
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AChimp AChimp is offline
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Old Jun 6th, 2003, 10:04 AM       
Yep... links in one, two, three and... oh yeah, four people that you listed. Not to mention the fact that there dozens of other links between those guys and other variables.

How many millions support evolution without believing in genocide, hmm?

Perhaps we should judge Christianity based on its actions in the Crusades? The Inquisition? How about the colonization of America? There are links between God and extreme violence there, too.

Oh, wait... not all Catholics have to believe the same thing. Right.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Jun 6th, 2003, 10:15 AM       
"I believe that anyone that thinks we are a decendant from a fucking money is an idiot."
-Vinth.

Huh. I believe anyone who uses the word descendant when they mean descended is an idiot.

"Oh, Oh! I wath juth typing fatht, Jewy jew jew! Aren't you too busy being Jewish to do not jew things you jew?"
-Vinth

So seriously. You know yopu had the wrong word, it was just a mistake?

"JEW! YOU ARE JEWISH, JEW! YOU DO THINGS THAT A JEW WOULD DO, EVEN BAD THINGS THAT RE JEWISH ARE YOU DOING JEW-JEW! I WILL HAVE A JISM ON YOUR FACE!"
-Vinth

Uhm... I... Know what? Skip it.

'" NO! Skip you jewishness! Bagel! Ha! I said Bagel! Mein Penith ith big!"
-Vinth
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