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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 08:32 PM        Abortion
With the passing of Roe v Wade a burden was placed upon the American people to to propel themselves towards a society without decadence. This burden has sadly been dropped for a more convenient route of quick sex and even quicker abortions. And understanding that a fetus is alive upon moment of conception, we must also understand that it has the basics rights of all living human beings. And among those basic rights is the right to life. But because of the unconsciecous PC politic throat holds of American political society, we must continue live with this debate hanging over our hands. Like a carrot being dangled in front of a wanting horse.

The rise of sexual activity could also be blamed upon the legalization of abortion. For with the legalization of abortion you garnered a society of people unwilling to utilize contraceptives, and more openly willing to have an abortion. With the existance of this society a taint is placed upon future generations, making it more understandable to have sex at an earlier age. And even with the existance of a more contraceptive aware society, the current status of legal abortions only furthers a growing problem. For a common turning point, should the contraceptives fail, is to have an abortion. And while it is unforseeable that making abortions illegal would instantly have an effect. It is plausible to believe that making them illegal would have a cataklysmic affect on future generations. Possibly even raising the age at which children become sexual activity, and decreasing the rate of teen pregnancy.
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ItalianStereotype ItalianStereotype is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 08:46 PM       
I'm not sure how successful this will be, we have already had something like 10 mojillion abortion threads.
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 08:48 PM       
Yea but it was kinda the only thing I could think up on such short notice. Use to just jumping in topics, not starting them.
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 09:34 PM       
My God, Raven. I didn't think I would have to put up with these kinds of ramblings once I finished Religion class at school. But, whatever, if you want a fight, then HAVE AT YOU!

I believe that abortion is not a problem, up to a point. I think that after the first three months, it should be against the law, but before that point, anything goes. Before three months, the fetus has no human traits, and there is no proof that it can feel anything, so how is that human?

And what about pregnancies that are a result from rape? Why would it be wrong for someone to abort the baby for that reason? That could ruin the girl's life if she had to go through with it, and that wouldn't be fair to anyone. Sure, it isn't the baby's fault that she got pregnant, but it isn't her's, either.


Another thing that disturbs me is this. I heard that a while ago in Catholic hospitals, if there were complications during the pregnancy, they would still refuse to abort, even if it meant the girl would die, because, well, "she had a chance to live, the baby hasn't." That is just fucked up.

And trying to make abortion illeagal is just forcing religious beliefs on a society that has a freedon to choose one's beliefs. If those beliefs do not agree with other people, then a debate is inevitable, but religion has NO PLACE in government WHATSOEVER! If you don't believe that abortion is right, don't have one. But don't ruin other people's lives for the sake of your beliefs. We don't share them.
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 09:42 PM       
I'm scientific. I don't base my beliefs off of religion.

"I believe that abortion is not a problem, up to a point. I think that after the first three months, it should be against the law, but before that point, anything goes. Before three months, the fetus has no human traits, and there is no proof that it can feel anything, so how is that human?"

Are you basing that off religion or science?

"And what about pregnancies that are a result from rape? Why would it be wrong for someone to abort the baby for that reason? That could ruin the girl's life if she had to go through with it, and that wouldn't be fair to anyone. Sure, it isn't the baby's fault that she got pregnant, but it isn't her's, either."

This only requires abortions in the first three months to be legal. And does not require them to be open to public use. Only to those who fall within the realm of exception. Which is a rather small percentage I might add.

"Another thing that disturbs me is this. I heard that a while ago in Catholic hospitals, if there were complications during the pregnancy, they would still refuse to abort, even if it meant the girl would die, because, well, "she had a chance to live, the baby hasn't." That is just fucked up. "

Of course that is wrong. If the mother's life is at risk during any portion of the pregnancy and there is a good probability that the baby will kill her, and probably itself, than an abortion is called for. But just like rape this is a small percentage and does not require abortion to be open to the public.

I answered your last statement with my first, in this post.
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 09:45 PM       
"I believe that abortion is not a problem, up to a point. I think that after the first three months, it should be against the law, but before that point, anything goes. Before three months, the fetus has no human traits, and there is no proof that it can feel anything, so how is that human? "


NO HOLDS BARRED! ANYTHING GOES! Fuck, screw and hump to your hearts content - anything goes! Fetus' arent human at all, so fuck 'em. They don't feel a thing, kill them - they don't mind!


So what if the fetus has a chance at life. Its not *alive* yet, so it's not really killing, is it?


ABORT! ABORT!

The thread that is, not the children
No good can come from this!
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 09:57 PM       
When I said "anything goes", I didn't mean that it can be viewed as another form of contraception. I believe quite the opposite, actually. I think that in the case of accidental pregnancies where the quality of life for the mother is at risk, it should be permissible. Lets just say, for example, that there is a young couple in love and they decide to have sex before marriage. Knowing the risks, they buy condoms. They screw, and then find that the condom broke. They are afraid of telling thier parents, but more afraid of what this will mean for their lives. They are both still in High School, and having a child will ruin any chances of them graduating. Then the baby will be born and they can put it up for adoption, but the damage has been done. Many schools suspend or even expel teenage parents nowadays, so they have missed out on at least nine months of education. Their lives will never be the same again.

Now lets step back a moment. Back to when they found out the condom broke. The become scared, but the next day the go together to their local abortion clinic, make an appointment, have the abortion, and never have pre-marital sex again. Tell me how that can be viewed as a problem.
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 10:27 PM       
So we should allow for irresponsibility now? Allowing those who "need" an abortion to have it simple because of they're own impatience? They made a choice to act. And they acted. Whether it was an intelligent action or not does not matter. We do not allow things for safety nets. And do you deny that human beings have a right to life?
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 10:30 PM       
*chuckles*
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 10:34 PM       
Yes, we have a right to life, but I believe that life starts as soon as you have a friggin central nervous system. If it doesn't know it is alive, then it isn't really living, is it? And yes, it is a problem that kids are aving sex earlier nowadays, but that is not, repeat IS NOT going to go away by banning abortion. The problem lies in the upbringing of the children. Me and my girlfriend will never have pre-marital sex because we think it is wrong. The kids that DO have it do NOT think that it is wrong. Simple as that. And what about people who ARE married but not in a situation that would allow them to financially carry the burden of children if they were put in the situation I described above? Answer THAT, you conservative fuck.
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 10:48 PM       
"Yes, we have a right to life, but I believe that life starts as soon as you have a friggin central nervous system. If it doesn't know it is alive, then it isn't really living, is it?"

Under that belief plants and bacterium are not alive. Since a plant is not alive is it perfectly fine to exterminate all of them? Or hell to just start clear cutting large amounts of trees? Something like 8 million abortions last year. Lets cut down 8 million trees. They do not know they are alive, so it is obviously perfectly fine. Am I right.

"And yes, it is a problem that kids are aving sex earlier nowadays, but that is not, repeat IS NOT going to go away by banning abortion. The problem lies in the upbringing of the children. Me and my girlfriend will never have pre-marital sex because we think it is wrong. The kids that DO have it do NOT think that it is wrong. Simple as that."

The kids that do not think it is wrong, do not think it is wrong, because the parents don't truly believe its wrong. They show this by the enviroments they allow their children to be in. These are the same parents that grew up during an era where free sex was perfectly with the older, not adult, society. This is the same society that reaped the fruits of Roe v Wade. Roe v Wade, which spawned the Summer of Love tour, and a widespread belief among a subculture populace that open sex and widespread sex was perfectly fine.

"And what about people who ARE married but not in a situation that would allow them to financially carry the burden of children if they were put in the situation I described above? Answer THAT, you conservative fuck."

No they should have watched they're child closer. You can't always watch your child, but you can keep a close enough tabs to understand what they are doing and who they are doing it with. And ask Preechr I'm not conservative.
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 11:02 PM       
You didnt understand what my thing about the adults was, did you? I meant if they had sex, AFTER marriage, and the condom broke, and they were not able to financially care for children, where would the problem for them to get an abortion lie?

And as for calling you a conservative fuck, I am sorry. You might not be conservative after all.
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 11:09 PM       
"You didnt understand what my thing about the adults was, did you? I meant if they had sex, AFTER marriage, and the condom broke, and they were not able to financially care for children, where would the problem for them to get an abortion lie?"

Either way I still wouldn't agree. There are many different types of conceptions. If you feel the need to have sex either use them and hope nothing happens, or find a different type of release. The condom breaks? Bad luck, you are going to have to deal with it. If you truly do not want the child, don't perform an act of reproduction.

And I realized I didn't address a question you asked earlier. So I'm going to address it.

"I believe that abortion is not a problem, up to a point. I think that after the first three months, it should be against the law, but before that point, anything goes. Before three months, the fetus has no human traits, and there is no proof that it can feel anything, so how is that human?"-Immortal Goat

How is that human. It has approximately 46 chromosomes for the proper cells doesn't it? It is human. And I state approximately to allow for the genetic mutation that cause less chromosomes, chromosome halves, and more chromosomes.
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 11:14 PM       
It is obvious that neither of us is going to sway the other on this subject. Nothing can change my position on this subject. I think it isn't a problem, you think it is. End of discussion.






Oh, and by the way, I don't think that it is human. It is a blob of genetic material. That is all.
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 11:18 PM       
I'm not exactly arguing it from my position. To argue abortion from personal beliefs is pointless. To argue abortion from mass necessity has point though. It can unite and create change.

You personally don't believe its human. I personally don't believe anyone is human. We are all just Homo sapien sapien. The question is how should abortion be argued as a whole?
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jun 16th, 2003, 11:44 PM       
Quote:
The question is how should abortion be argued as a whole?

Simple. Live and let live. Do not take away other people's options just because you don't agree with it.
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 12:36 AM       
To repeal Roe v Wade does not take away other people's options. And should we just allow people to have their options open? What about revenge. That is an option. Should we live and let live and allow people the chance to choose that?
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 12:46 AM       
Who cares, its just like killing dinner. Think of it as your dinner, and slaughter those pesty little buggers.
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 12:57 AM       
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH<wheeze>


</wheeze>


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHA


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA






HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 01:07 AM       
Heh damn Preechr that's screwing up the board.
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 01:13 AM       
oOps...

Sorry. I have a tendancy to screw things up.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 01:49 AM       
Not anymore, I fixed it.

Maybe now people will actually bother to read this thread, though it has been discussed ad nauseum on the old boards.

I'll jump into this tomorrow, I have to be up for work in five hours. For now I'll simply say that I used to be adamantly pro-life, whereas now I am pro-choice, at least from a political standpoint. More on that later.
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Raven Raven is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 08:13 AM       
"Oh, I don't know. Maybe a girl's right if she wants to terminate the life growing with her or SHOOT IT PAINFULLY OUT OF HER CUNT WHEN SHE CAN'T AFFORD TO RAISE IT ASSHOLE!"-Grazzt.

This statement alone shows you have an opinion on this Grazzt. Now show me your greater quanity of intelligence, and destroy my points.
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 10:25 AM       
Man, we've had this discussion so many times before I've lost count.

Arguing that if we ban abortions, people will change the way they have sex is overly optimistic. People love to fuck, plain and simple. How will the lack of access to abortions decrease teenage pregnancy? Recent surveys have shown that most teenage girls who are sexually active are of the opinion "that it won't happen to them" (at least, here in Canada those are what polls are showing, I'm sure that it's similar in the U.S.)

I agree that if a couple creates a child, then it's their own fault: his for not keeping it in his pants, and hers for not keeping her knees together. However, that does not invalidate abortions, but neither side can be kept happy.

I think that, as Immortal Goat stated, a set limit has to be created after which abortions are no longer available. The first trimester is the span that I came up with last time we argued this.

IMO, blobs of cells are not human. With the proper manipulation, it could become anything. Just because it can grow into a human doesn't make it a human at that point. Using that logic, I could scrape off a few cells from here and there and call that human because, if allowed to grow properly, they'd turn into a clone of me.

Once a fetus has a somewhat functioning brain, though, the line becomes fuzzy, and it's better to give it the benefit of the doubt and not perform any abortions. If the couple really doesn't want the child, well, there's always adoption.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Jun 17th, 2003, 10:27 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal Goat
Quote:
The question is how should abortion be argued as a whole?
Simple. Live and let live.
Do not take away other people's options just because you don't agree with it.
In my opinion, killing people is fine. Therefore, by your argument, I can kill you.

See the similarities between this an abortion? If not, I pity you.

As for financial cirumstances: Hello. I'd like you to meet my good friend adoption, the solution to your point.
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