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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old Nov 13th, 2009, 08:10 PM        Strength training VS Cardio for fat loss
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Originally Posted by Guitar Woman View Post
I get what Dimnos is saying

What if he just wants to lose weight and doesn't really want to end up building absurd amounts of muscle? What's the best shit to do, then?

My ideal figure is somewhere between a holocaust survivor and Iggy Pop, so I'm looking for a weightloss plan along those lines, too.
You only gain muscle from exercising if you feed yourself protein shortly before and/or after the workouts. If you fast for 30 minutes prior and 2 hours after lifting weights, your muscles will cannibalize themselves - moreso if you're already low on fat. A less stupid way of not becoming xbawks hueg is not to increase the weight you're lifting each session. Lift until you reach your ideal amount of muscle and then just keep lifting the same weight for the same reps - you won't get any bigger doing that.

Weightlifting is the most effective form of exercise for weight loss, but you should combine it with cardio if you intend to actually be 'fit' in any capacity. Diet is again the biggest part. Come to think of it, if you just want to lose fat and not gain any muscle whatsoever (in fact, you'll lose some), just diet hard on a protein-sparing modified fast like Lyle's program and don't do a fucking thing in terms of exercise.

If you're also aiming to be a delicious trap, supplement that awful idea with Soy milk, because it's full of phyto-estrogen.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 04:03 PM       
weightlifting is not the most effective form of weight loss. it is, however, the most effective way to lose weight while simultaneously bulking up and strengthening muscle.

cardio is the most effective form of weight loss. it's also the easiest and fastest and in my opinion the most fun, because you don't have to do the same shit over and over again like you do with pushups/pullups/weight lifting/etc. it'll also help you tone the muscles, instead of building on them.
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Last edited by elx : Nov 14th, 2009 at 04:20 PM. Reason: rephrased
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 05:27 PM       
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Originally Posted by elx View Post
weightlifting is not the most effective form of weight loss. it is, however, the most effective way to lose weight while simultaneously bulking up and strengthening muscle.

cardio is the most effective form of weight loss. it's also the easiest and fastest and in my opinion the most fun, because you don't have to do the same shit over and over again like you do with pushups/pullups/weight lifting/etc. it'll also help you tone the muscles, instead of building on them.
1. "tone" is a nonsense term. Your muscles are your muscles, and there are two dimensions to form - fat and muscle. Stretching and running aren't going to make your muscles magically change shape, that's stupid. You're stupid. While we're on the subject, when you lose fat, you lose it from all over your body in proportions defined by your genetics and gender - running isn't going to make your legs slimmer. If you've observed this effect in someone, you're misinterpreting it - they've gained muscles in their legs and reduced their overall bodyfat. Doing squats would have gotten them the same results in FAR LESS TIME.

2. Cardio is not BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION the fastest way to exercise. What is this I don't even. Perhaps you're thinking of high-intensity interval training?

3. Cardio is not the most effective form of weight loss, either, no. You will burn more calories with cardio while you're exercising than you would with weights, but the body's repairing process will burn more calories overall with weightlifting. Further, the longer you do cardio, the more your body will retain fat to sustain itself during extended cardio sessions.

4. "You don't have to do the same shit over and over [with cardio]" - wtf? That is like, the DEFINITION of cardio. Repetitive motions for extended periods of time. With weightlifting you're doing something different every 10-20 minutes, and should have different routines on different days of the week.

Toning, shaping, spot reduction, etc. are all broscience and don't exist. You're perpetuating myths in your ignorance.

That post was so patently incorrect that I'm gonna try to troll /fit/ with it.
http://zip.4chan.org/fit/res/1811468.html
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 05:44 PM       
I AM SORRY IF I WAS TOO HARSH but your post made me rage ;<

it was like the advice some female personal trainer in her 50s would give you, moments before she goes off to do some curls with 5 lb. weights.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 05:54 PM       
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 06:11 PM       
OK, apparently, we have very ideas of what "cardio" is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobic_exercise
i was not referring to like 80s jazzercise. cardio is the best, it's the fast-paced stuff that gets you moving. boxing, dancing, skating, swimming, running, whatever. you can do hardcore or light, you will get results either way.

it's not rocket science, anyone can understand why cardio is a more reasonable choice for someone just looking to slim down. strengthening will totally change your physique, it'll take the fat and make it work in a different way for you -- whereas cardio will just take your shape and make it smaller, it'll eliminate the fat and then after a while, begin to tighten your body. (tighten=tone to me)

and yeah cardio is way more fun imo, i'm pretty sure anyone could find some form of cardio that they would love doing, and if not, they can switch it up any which way they like. no matter what you choose though the idea is the same, the goal is to burn more than you eat.

also i'm not clicking on that 4chan link and i think it was really silly that you just apologized to me for nothing but thanks i guess
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 06:29 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by elx View Post
OK, apparently, we have very ideas of what "cardio" is.
i don't think you read my post

Quote:
i was not referring to like 80s jazzercise. cardio is the best, it's the fast-paced stuff that gets you moving. boxing, dancing, skating, swimming, running, whatever. you can do hardcore or light, you will get results either way.
Just much more slowly than you would if you were lifting instead of doing cardio or doing it in tandem with cardio.

Quote:
it's not rocket science, anyone can understand why cardio is a more reasonable choice for someone just looking to slim down. strengthening will totally change your physique, it'll take the fat and make it work in a different way for you
Um, fat loss is fat loss. Lifting weights will make your muscles bigger faster than cardio, but that is BECAUSE IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE aAISRISUARERJFEAIOSFAGH

Quote:
-- whereas cardio will just take your shape and make it smaller, it'll eliminate the fat and then after a while, begin to tighten your body. (tighten=tone to me)
"tighten" just means your skin is closer to your muscle. If you're reducing fat while minorly increasing muscle (cardio), this will happen more slowly than if you're reducing fat quickly while majorly increasing muscle (weightlighting). Or at your discretion, you can just lift weights with higher reps and not increase the poundage - doing it this way, you'll increase muscle at about the same rate as cardio (if not slower, since you are limited by rational boundaries) and it'll still be a better use of your time.

Quote:
and yeah cardio is way more fun imo
yeah i can't think of any better way to spend 60 minutes than staring at a TV or wall while I repeat the same motion

fyi i play videogames while i use my recumbent bike on my cardio days so it's not really that bad, but point is -

cardio is inferior to lifting weights unless you're an olympic swimmer (and therefore need your bodyweight to be retarded low). chicks all seem to have this retarded phobia of becoming the next chyna if they touch a barbell, when their bodies are physically not able to do that without going nuts with injections like they're playing Bioshock.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 06:54 PM       
first off, you're a jerk, i don't want to be kidnapped, if i wanted my words on 4chan i'd post them there myself

and i'll try to meet you in the middle here,
cardio is better for slimming down, it is faster and more efficient.
strength training is better for overall fitness in the long run.

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.
i was trying to avoid the semantics and make this as simple as possible to understand, but if you still don't, i'd be more than happy to get technical.

ALSO, i'm not afraid of strength training, i've done it plenty, i have no issues with it, i actually had to take a workshop on it when getting my assistant coach badge. i wasn't going to say anything at all but i found it incredibly annoying that you were actually discouraging people from doing what they were doing and wanted to do just because you read about fitness on 4chan and it worked for you, which is great and awesome and dandy but not everyone wants to do 200 squats and pullups a day nothing wrong with cardio
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 06:54 PM       
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Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
fyi i play videogames while i use my recumbent bike on my cardio days so it's not really that bad, but point is...
One of my best friends in the world would do stuff like that. He's got a treadmill and plays his vidya games and watches T.V. He lost sixty pounds, doing that everyday for I don't know how long.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 07:10 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by elx View Post
first off, you're a jerk, i don't want to be kidnapped, if i wanted my words on 4chan i'd post them there myself

and i'll try to meet you in the middle here,
cardio is better for slimming down, it is faster and more efficient.
strength training is better for overall fitness in the long run.

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.
No it fucking isn't.

You have it backwards. People who lift weights become cosmetically better, but often are lacking in terms of actual fitness. THAT is what cardio is for.

Feel free to educate yourself!
http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html

And because I know you won't read it, here's the part of it that directly relates to this discussion:

Quote:
Are you trying to lose weight? Lift weights. Lifting burns tons of calories, and lifting weights while dieting will cause you to retain more muscle and lose more fat than just diet and/or cardio. Because the name of the game when it comes to not looking awful is FAT LOSS, not weight loss. Do you want to be that guy who loses lots of weight and still looks flabby and useless? Of course not.

Are you just trying to “tone up”? Lift weights. “Toning” is kind of a nonsense term, because you don’t actually “tone” anything. You can only lose fat and gain muscle, and lifting weights helps you do both, by burning calories and promoting muscle growth. Like I said before, you get huge by eating huge, not lifting weights; lifting just determines how much of your weight is muscle vs. fat.

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won’t turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away. This is a gradual process we are talking about here; you don’t go from Twiggy to Linebacker Bulldyke overnight.

Lifting weights also makes you stronger, less injury prone and promotes stronger bones and looking better naked. It speeds up your metabolism a bit and makes you healthier generally.

But what about cardio? For one thing, it burns lots of calories. But cardio is also good for everyone because it improves your overall endurance and ability to exert yourself over an extended period. It promotes cardiovascular health and contributes to increased bone density. Basically, your ability to perform pretty much any kind of physical activity is helped by being in good cardiovascular health, and it makes it less likely that you will eventually die from your heart exploding.

My suggestion is to alternate weights and cardio, for instance doing 3 days of weights, 2 days of cardio, and taking the other 2 days off. Doing both on the same day tends to cause one or the other to suffer from reduced effort, and generally burns people out.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 07:27 PM       
no you
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 07:35 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by elx View Post
cardio is better for slimming down, it is faster and more efficient.
strength training is better for overall fitness in the long run.

this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.
"Why weight loss requires strength training, even in women and seniors"

http://www.naturalnews.com/011285_bo...scle_mass.html

"Strength Training for Weight Loss: Weight Lifting Is Better Than Cardio Exercise or Dieting"

http://weight-loss-methods.suite101....or_weight_loss

"The typical consensus is that cardiovascular activity and a stringent diet are the only ways to achieve weight loss. On the contrary, utilizing a weightlifting routine will boost your metabolism and help you shed unwanted weight."

http://www.ehow.com/way_5410921_stre...ight-loss.html

Quote:
i'd be more than happy to get technical.
go on
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 07:51 PM       
i am supposed to be studying, i am not going to have this conversation with you if you're just going to link articles to make your point, i can do that too.

http://www.lifemojo.com/lifestyle/ca...aining-4713708

http://hubpages.com/hub/CardiovsStre...chburnsmorefat

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042001772.html
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 08:02 PM       
Link 1: Doesn't discuss the topic at all

Link 2: Presupposes that strength training is lauded for fat loss due to muscle burning more calories than fat while existing. The increase in calorie burn by just having muscle is minimal, but that's not why strength training is better for fat loss - fat loss is promoted by the body repairing microtears in muscle tissue, which OVERALL burns more calories than cardio does. The article then goes on to ignore all of the actual benefits of strength training.

Link 3: Also is only counting the calories burned while actually exercising. Again, most of the calories burned by lifting are burned while you rest. I lol'd though at them saying YEAH WELL YOU CAN ONLY LIFT A FEW TIMES A WEEK -- THAT IS BECAUSE ON THE OFF DAYS YOUR BODY IS BURNING CALORIES TO REPAIR ITSELF, FUCKWITS, A PROCESS WHICH WOULD BE SLOWED BY PUTTING STRAIN ON THE MUSCLES BY DOING CARDIO

Quote:
this is proven, this is known, it's not even a debate. it's the way it is.
according to every one of the articles you just linked, it is a debate. and in the process of them mangling facts, they all acknowledge that you will need to lift weights as well as do cardio if you actually want to lose weight.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 08:16 PM       
btw elx i am very appreciative that there is at least one other person on this board who actually gives a shit about fitness and will argue with me
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 09:52 PM       
strength training is not superior to cardio. in cardio, you will lose weight faster because you are burning more calories in less amount of time than you would in strength training alone. you are also less restricted, you are able to exercise for longer unintermittedly. as it turns out though, the end results are equally sucky on their own, the most effective form of weight loss is neither, it would be a combination of the two, so we were both wrong.

here are two quick studies I found that support my conclusion-

this one for healthy older adults:
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Ab...aining.21.aspx

this one for slightly obese younger adults:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/3/557

if you had to choose between the two, I would still say that you should opt for cardio. you just have more flexibility in your work out than you would in strength conditioning alone, because of this you can do it much more casually and get the exact same results you would have if you were doing squats, situps, pullups, weight lifting, etc.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 11:31 PM       
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Originally Posted by elx View Post
strength training is not superior to cardio. in cardio, you will lose weight faster because you are burning more calories in less amount of time than you would in strength training alone.
i don't think you're listening to what i'm saying, so i'll say it another way.

1 hour of exercise: cardio > lifting
1 week of exercise: lifting (3 days, 4 days rest) > cardio (7 days)
1 week of max fat loss: lifting (3 days), cardio (4 days)

Quote:
you are also less restricted, you are able to exercise for longer unintermittedly.
Again, this is only an issue if you insist on looking at a several-hour window for calorie loss. Your rest days from lifting are also taking a toll on your body while it recovers from the lifts.

Quote:
as it turns out though, the end results are equally sucky on their own, the most effective form of weight loss is neither, it would be a combination of the two, so we were both wrong.
It depends. If you're eating at an extreme deficit, you won't be able to do cardio for a long enough period for it to be useful without burning out and causing other problems. The activities involved in strength training are brief enough that you can usually do a set quickly and then sit down before you pass out. Every PSMF diet I've seen recommends no more than 30 minutes of cardio for this reason, and people stand to lose the greatest amount of weight in the smallest amount of time under those programs.

Quote:
if you had to choose between the two, I would still say that you should opt for cardio. you just have more flexibility in your work out than you would in strength conditioning alone, because of this you can do it much more casually and get the exact same results you would have if you were doing squats, situps, pullups, weight lifting, etc.
If you were doing lifts alone, you'd have entire days off from your training and would spend less time doing it per-workout as well. However, cardio is more accessible for most people - but for those of use who SPLURGED on the $120 for a squat rack, it's far less of an inconvenience than a lengthy cardio exercise.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 11:35 PM       
Also I don't really have a dog in this fight since I do both (3 days strength, 4 days cardio), but I feel that strength training is often overlooked because people think it's too hard or inefficient due to misinformation. Add to this that it's far easier to do cardio CORRECTLY since it's nigh impossible to fuck up, unlike weights, which have smith and nautilus machines that produce shitty results.
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 11:48 PM       
i don't give a crud about fitness, i never work out because i don't have to. :3
but yes, cardio is generally better for most people aswell as easier, i'm glad we agree.

now what is this thread for?
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Old Nov 14th, 2009, 11:50 PM       
Cardio is only better if you're a pussy with a lot of free time on your hands

a.k.a. everyone on the internet
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Old Nov 15th, 2009, 12:02 AM       
why even bother working out so much?
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Old Nov 15th, 2009, 12:15 AM       
i'd show you some before and after pics, but the "before" ones induce vomiting and i'm still not quite where i'd like to be with my weight
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Old Nov 15th, 2009, 12:21 AM       
if you keep at it you'll look gross
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Old Nov 15th, 2009, 12:27 AM       
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Old Nov 15th, 2009, 12:31 AM       
yeah that's disgusting, someone should tell that dude he's missing his pants
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