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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 05:44 PM        America After Bin Laden
Some have already been quick to declare the so-called war on terror over: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...war-on-terror/.

Beinart's argument, in short, is that America requires a framework, or a kind of mission statement, in which it can conduct - and justify - its foreign policy. Before the GWOT there was The Cold War, and before that there were a couple of big wars you might remember. The next 'model', according to Beinart anyway, is Rising China and the threat it poses to American hegemony.

Is he correct? Is the global war on terror essentially over? Is American Declinism, vis-a-vis China's emergence, the next 'big thing'?
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Pentegarn Pentegarn is offline
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 08:19 PM       
If you listen to the people in charge of information and keeping it secure, it is most assuredly China, and this war will not be fought on a battlefield.

As for the "war on terror" I feel it is and always was as futile as the "war on drugs". Terrorism will never go away completely.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 02:05 PM       
They would be silly to swap the war on terror for a war on Chinese interests. Terror is there as long as you fear it; it comes and goes when your government wants it to as well.

Chinese interests are real, harder to make it seem like you are fighting, and go hand in hand with your own US interests.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 02:20 PM       
Our own US interests? You're telling me that the rest of the world is not as worried about China as the US is?
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 02:57 PM       
No, I'm saying the US didn't/don't do much trading with the capitalist wing of the USSR or Al Qaeda.

If you are talking about why I mentioned the US rather than anyone else, well, we were talking about the US. Also, Australia recently announced closer military ties with China - no specifics, just vague statements that mean nothing.
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Tadao Tadao is offline
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 03:11 PM       
Well as far as trading with Al Qaeda goes, I do believe we armed them up until they started attacking us.

And as far as US interests go, that's not really existent. There are things like richest people in the world interests fighting each other though.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 03:35 PM       
Us interests = US companies interests.


I wouldn't call arming the Mujahideen as building a profitable business rapport, either
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 04:33 PM       
Now that we've slayed our big boogeyman, America is going to ease into a golden age, where War on anything is not our essential paradigm. We'll greatly reduce our military footprint, reinvesting that money in clean renewable energy technology and research, enhancing the social safety net to produce a demonstrable trickle up effect and reach out to the poor not just of America but of the world. A new cabinet position, Secretary of Peace will be established, and on the rare occasions that terrorism rears it's ugly head we'll deal with it through international police work, not disproportionate, non functional military force.

I'm kidding of course. We'll stay stuck in the middle east and blow all our money their until the Chinese own all our debt and tell us if we don't get out and start realizing we're Britain after WWII (If we're that lucky) tey stop selling us shit, stop making cheap shit for us to buy and stop loaning us money. By that time America will be 1% English speaking astronomically wealthy and 99% poverty or bellow speaking a pidgeon blend of Spanish and Chinese.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 04:37 PM       
and armed.

It will be one giant Alabama.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM       
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 05:12 PM       

"Chi-ken san-wich?"
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 05:35 PM       
I'm sort of ignorant in the matter but I don't really see how china can compare to america or most of the world. They are still basically an industrial society whereas we are like a post-post-industrial society.
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Pentegarn Pentegarn is offline
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:23 PM       
Well they are going through their industrial revolution at warp speed and they can make anything cheaper and faster than anyone else. Their computer espionage branch is top notch and the people i know involved with stopping them are not sure they will be able to.

The next war will be the Cyber War, where China will hack into our systems and we will be like the boy with his finger in the dam trying to stop them
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:23 PM       
They have very few laws that restrict them from forced labor and proper handling of hazardous waste. So they can make things for .0001 of a cent and sell it for 100 dollars.

That's a lot of profit and profit is king. But you know all that so I think I don't understand what you are asking.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:27 PM       
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:33 PM       
Quote:
Well they are going through their industrial revolution at warp speed and they can make anything cheaper and faster than anyone else.
Quote:
They have very few laws that restrict them from forced labor and proper handling of hazardous waste. So they can make things for .0001 of a cent and sell it for 100 dollars.
:O we have standards, they don't. Plus their products suck. If they ever implement standards then their economy will decrease, and we would be way ahead of them insofar as having standards and having a successful economy. Most of china is also still pretty ghetto. Plus we're the ones that buy most of their products, so if we get fucked so will they.

but again I'm totally ignorant in the matter...
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:39 PM       
No, you got it right. I saw a comedian talking about the same thing and it came down to "America is addicted to buying crap they don't need."

Just look at how many garages are filled with crap while cars are parked on the driveway or street.

The only thing is, what happens when America refuses to pay back the money we borrowed? War?
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:42 PM       
I dunno. I don't think that there would be any international precedence for that, except what happened with germany after wwI. I think China would just be fucked.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 07:12 PM       
IN A WORLD WHERE APES EVOLVED FROM MEN?!!!!!
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Old May 4th, 2011, 11:21 AM       
The US and China will never go to war because our economies are now dependent on one another. If one of us goes after the other, then both are going to suffer horrific economic downturns along the lines of complete collapse. And why would we fight China? Where is the motivation for either of us to engage in conflict?

The only reason people think of China as some enemy is because of their rapid growth coupled with the fact that they claim to be a communist state. Their ability to project hard power is laughable, and soft power is their only real tool. That soft power is reliant upon continued economic relations with the United States.

If there's an aggressor who causes war between the two, it will be the US simply because China has more to lose and would have no prospects of winning in a war with the United States. If anything, there's going to be pushes for even closer alignment with China simply because it benefits our economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
Well they are going through their industrial revolution at warp speed and they can make anything cheaper and faster than anyone else. Their computer espionage branch is top notch and the people i know involved with stopping them are not sure they will be able to.

The next war will be the Cyber War, where China will hack into our systems and we will be like the boy with his finger in the dam trying to stop them
Ok, I don't see a problem with this because "Cyber War" occurs mostly on the internet. Hackers deface government websites and other things. Actual government systems are not connected to the internet.

If you want to disrupt the computer system of a military facility, or steal data from said facility, you have to actually enter the base and stick a pin drive or an external hard drive into a base computer and upload/download the stuff.

The only way to attack stuff that is actually important would be focusing on economics. Stocks and things like that. But because the Chinese economy is interlinked with the US economy, China isn't going to be trying to disrupt the US economy.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 11:27 AM       
I don't see how China would be hurt, we owe them more than we give them. The would be richer if they didn't deal with us at this point. All they appear to be doing is letting us rack up debt so that they basically own us. That doesn't make much sense either so it has to be something else.

I doubt they are doing it because they like us.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old May 4th, 2011, 02:06 PM       
i just think of it as being like the Dawes Plan :O
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old May 5th, 2011, 12:54 AM       
Good post Leader.
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Pentegarn Pentegarn is offline
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Old May 5th, 2011, 07:21 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Leader View Post
The US and China will never go to war because our economies are now dependent on one another. If one of us goes after the other, then both are going to suffer horrific economic downturns along the lines of complete collapse. And why would we fight China? Where is the motivation for either of us to engage in conflict?

The only reason people think of China as some enemy is because of their rapid growth coupled with the fact that they claim to be a communist state. Their ability to project hard power is laughable, and soft power is their only real tool. That soft power is reliant upon continued economic relations with the United States.

If there's an aggressor who causes war between the two, it will be the US simply because China has more to lose and would have no prospects of winning in a war with the United States. If anything, there's going to be pushes for even closer alignment with China simply because it benefits our economy.


Ok, I don't see a problem with this because "Cyber War" occurs mostly on the internet. Hackers deface government websites and other things. Actual government systems are not connected to the internet.

If you want to disrupt the computer system of a military facility, or steal data from said facility, you have to actually enter the base and stick a pin drive or an external hard drive into a base computer and upload/download the stuff.

The only way to attack stuff that is actually important would be focusing on economics. Stocks and things like that. But because the Chinese economy is interlinked with the US economy, China isn't going to be trying to disrupt the US economy.
There's a place where I live, it is known as Batelle. It is a contracted facility that works for the government developing new technologies, be it agricultural, military, industrial, etc. This facility is not unique, there are dozens like it scattered all over the USA, these facilities all have one thing in common, they are connected to the internet because they are not official government installations. They have been attacked before by China, I know this because a relative to a person very close to me is a big part of trying to keep China out. So I get to hear a lot of stories about things that have been thwarted. They don't need the government computers to steal information when they can steal it from a contracted third party source before it gets to any secure off the net facility. China only has to succeed once, while these third party contractors have to succeed every day.

People may think China won't/can't get us via the internet, but I am here to tell you that this in fact not the case.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old May 5th, 2011, 10:26 AM       
But they can't shut down your missile defence networks or shit like that.
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