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  #26  
Dimnos Dimnos is offline
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Old Nov 11th, 2009, 10:21 AM       
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Originally Posted by kahljorn View Post
anyway lets just leave it at this:

If democratic socialism could be completely transparent with people being both interested in that transparency and being capable of contemplating it while partaking in their democratic and socialist duties, it just might work out. PERFECTLY
oh and if they can not be greedy.

On the other hand, if democratic capitalism could be completely transparent with people being both interested in that transparency and being capable of contemplating it while partaking in their democratic and capatalist duties, it just might work out.
theoretically capalism doesn't require people to magically stop being greedy in order to function well, as long as it has the things above
In other words...

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  #27  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 11th, 2009, 10:24 AM       
i was trying to stay away from historic communism since that's not a very good representation of marxist communism, but yea that's pretty much what I figured would happen
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Old Nov 11th, 2009, 10:36 AM       
Yeah but you cant forget that there is Marxist communism then there is the real world we live in. When applied to a community about the size of a city it could work. Anything bigger than that and its just designed to fail.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Nov 12th, 2009, 07:05 AM       
Eh, why waste time typing.
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Old Nov 12th, 2009, 10:24 AM       
Dont give up.
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  #31  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 12th, 2009, 08:53 PM       
well, talking about Marxism is kind of a waste of time anyway since he said that : A) its not something that can jsut be voted ifor and B) Marx didn't really talk about communism, as a political system, that much anyway.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Nov 13th, 2009, 03:45 AM       
Just because Socialism isn't something that come only come through voting hardly makes it irrelevant. Because voting IS relevant. Sure.

No, Marx never outlined what a communist society would look like. That would be stupid since it would depend on too many variables to be a concrete dogma to adhere to. Marx and Engels used dialectic materialism to show that like socio-economic revolutions of the past, the class that hold all economic power but no political power will revolt, and once this class is in power, society will change to reflect it's needs. The bourgeois class held economic power during feudal times, and they revolted once the feudal system became a fetter on them, and changed society to suit their needs. The proletarian class should do the same because capitalism is no longer a progressive force. A communist society isn't something Marx came up with one afternoon, and thought it would be nice if it was true, he just proved it's the innevitable ending to human development of society and the productive forces. Actualy, no, not totally innevitable, it's either "Socialism or barbarism".


It's not worth me typing out rebutals to the same, tired, old arguments such as "It works in theory/on paper..." "People are hard-wired to be greedy" or "it only works on a small scale". But anyway...

If something is theoreticaly sound then it logically follows that it is practically sound too. If it is not practically sound then don't say it "works in theory". If it doesn't work in "real life" then the theory is wrong. If you haven't understood the theory then you can't comment.

People are not hard wired to be greedy. There is no greedy gene. There is only something in the realm of 23 000 genes in a human; far too few to be taken up with things like greed or homosexuality. If humans are wired to be greedy, then how do you explain non-greedy people?

Socialism cannot work on a small scale as proven by the USSR, with Stalin's "Socialism in one country" theory. A city or even a country can never be entirely self sufficient, and has to rely on help and trade from around the globe. Small scale communes are just hippies living in poverty. Socialism requires mass industry and the means of production to provide nessecities for an advanced human culture. It is the industrialisation of society and the produced working class that leads to socialism. Yes, it can be broken up into a smaller scale; localised elections and communities running things for themselves. Communism is the death of the state, and if you still have the world divided up into countries and nations apart then you still have a state system.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Nov 13th, 2009, 05:33 PM       
Yea, marx was really more of a historian/sociologist than a political theorist. Kind of like Nietzsche ;/
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DevilWearsPrada DevilWearsPrada is offline
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Old Nov 16th, 2009, 01:02 AM       


"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."
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Old Nov 16th, 2009, 08:52 PM       
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Old Nov 16th, 2009, 10:12 PM       
Nietzsche was wrong. God is not dead. Philosophy is dead.
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